## Sioux Exponential Unit Stats

I_HaRRiiSoN_I
Dragoon
Posts: 245
Location: United Kingdom
As a humble lowly 1st lieutenant I always wonder why top players do not use teepees for tactical purposes like map control and gold starving, these days on EP it is a case of drop 5 teepees near your town centre, push out in fortress age and then type 'GG' in the chat box.

Although I do appreciate the ESOC patch redesign of the teepee, I also appreciate that they have not Altered the RE version of What teepees were meant to to in general.

The following information was conducted on the latest ESOC patch, where No war chief benefiting cards were used, no team game cards sent from other allied civs and no upgrades researched from Native Trading Post minor civs (like lakota, cheyenne and comanche). I also appreciate that it may be impractical to clump 20 teepees together in a real match but treat the below as more of a thought experiment instead of a hard guide.

what's the idea? The idea is that sioux could also have a map control based agenda instead of a fast fortress nature and possibly win some matchups in a different way instead of right clicking the opponents TC.

Teepee HP boost on Axe Riders

Lets consider the colonial Axe rider with Stats of HP:250, SD: 20, HD: 38. If we built an Axe rider next to a teepee we observe that its HP increases to 267HP, only a modest 7% / 17HP increase. However when multiple teepees are used its effects are profound. {Note there is a card which increases teepee build limit from 10 to 20)

0 'teepee' HP = 250
1 'teepee' HP = 267
5 'teepee' HP = 350
10 'teepee' HP = 491
15 'teepee' HP = 689
20 'teepee' HP = 967

This is incredible, it shows that the teepee exponentially affects the stats of the unit by HP=base*(1.07^n) where n is the number of teepees in range of the selected unit. I believe many people didnt realise this about the sioux and thought that the HP gain was linear I.e HP = base * n * 1.1 ( which is not the case). As i write this i wonder whether this was intentional as it has a massive difference. Also the 7% health gain is questionable compared to 10% many people think it actually is.

Attack Card on Axe Riders

The fun really starts when you send the teepee attack aura card: Again considering colonial Axe Riders.

0 'teepee' SD: 20 HD: 35
1 'teepee' SD: 22 HD: 38
5 'teepee' SD: 32 HD: 56
10 'teepee' SD: 51 HD: 90
15 'teepee' SD: 83 HD: 146
20 'teepee' SD: 134 HD: 235

This exponential growth behaves the exactly the same way as the HP, however the growth percentage is 10%. Not linear 10% but exponential 10%! Total damage = base*(1.1^n).

At this point the colonial units max stats are:

Axe Rider : HP: 967 SD: 134 HD: 235
Bow Rider : HP: 851 SD: 67 RD: 134
Dog Soldier : HP: 2,128 SD: 201 HD: 188

After sending the following cards: Cav Attack, Cav HP and Euro Arsenal, its affect on the the units stats were observed.
Firstly the Cav HP card changed the Axe rider HP from 967HP to 1112HP. On the face of it this sounds normal. "If i send a 15% HP upgrade for my cav then my HP will increase by 15%" - the answer is TRUE.

This means the teepees affect and change the base stats of a unit before any other upgrades are applied to the increased stats.

so final HP is = BASE*upgrades where BASE = base*(1.07^n) as before. The example written out with symbols substituted is:
final HP, 1112 = {250*(1.07^20)}*1.15.
This increases to 1209HP with cav HP tech from arsenal. (Who says this tech is just for french cuirs?)

Final Colonial Max Stats

At this point the colonial units max stats with cards and arsenal tech: {without WC cards}

War chief: HP: 3385 SD: 166 HD: 66
Axe Rider : HP: 1209 SD: 154 HD: 270
Bow Rider : HP: 979 SD: 84 RD: 168
Dog Soldier : HP: 2,660 SD: 232 HD: 216

Imperial Dog Soldier Max Stats with Cav combat
Imp Dog Soldier: HP: 5,107 SD: 464 HD: 433

War dance and Siege Dance

ladies and gentleman we are not done yet! It appears that the War dance and siege dance apply a multiplier to the final stats (and not the base stats or the 'BASE' stats as defined earlier. this means that the maximum bonuses from War dance {25%} and Siege dance {~199%} are added after everything else is calculated,

'Final Form' Imperial Dog Soldier Max Stats with all cards/techs and Dances
(both siege and war are shown together for illustrative purposes)

Imp Dog Soldier: HP: 5,107 SD: 1,389 HD: 541

Therefore equation for attack damage is DAMAGE = {[base*(1.1^n)]*(Cards&Upgrades)}*WarOrSiege dances

.............. Oh dear god what have I done!

Update 1 25/8
*bump* lol. I was giving this a little thought and possibly I tried to push this idea as a colonial / late colonial strategy but have realised since that this has more use in the late fortress age. Reasons are: You have already sent your important cards, the wood needed to construct them is less significant, The attack/HP buffs multiply off of any upgrades (Elite Axe rider / Cav combat) and that wakinas and war hut units can build them instead of villagers.

To give good comparison to what affect these teepees have I have answered the question, How many teepees to I need to get Imperial stats on my units. (Note in EP& beta there is talk of reverting the HP buff back to 10%. With the attack policy card each teepee will increase the final unit stats by 10%.) I the number of teepees required is valid for the attack and will be valid for the HP if the 10% revert is implemented.

The results are true for all sioux units as this is about stat upgrades and not base stats.

Colonial Axe Rider
HP: 250
Attack: 35
Number of Teepees needed for Imp stats. 8

Elite Axe Rider (Base +25%)
HP: 312
Attack: 43
Number of Teepees needed for Imp stats. 5

Elite Axe Rider + Cav combat (Base + 40%)
HP: 350
Attack: 49
Number of Teepees needed for Imp stats. 4

Champion Axe Rider + Cav combat (Base + 65%)
HP: 412
Attack: 57
Number of Teepees needed for Imp stats. 2

What i am trying to suggest is that as the game goes on, this card with a small number of teepees can have large bonuses on units with upgrade cards already sent.
musketeer925
ESOC Dev Team
Posts: 2060
ESO: musketeer925
GameRanger ID: 451878
Is it even physically possible to get 20 teepees in range of one unit? Let alone in a real fight?

Cav really relies on mobility so I just don't see how you could pair cav with some kind of exponential teepee deal. I don't really understand your connections to a "map control agenda". You only get the expontential advantage by cramming all your teepees in the same place, which sounds like the opposite of map control

If you had a rec of the playstyle you're advocating that might help.
I_HaRRiiSoN_I
Dragoon
Posts: 245
Location: United Kingdom
Its more of a thought experiment, but in a real game it could be 4 teepees guarding a forward base or a resource (which also gives eco ups) which would be more effective than Cav HP for that fight for just 200w. You could argue that CAV hp is permanent where that 200wood is useless after the fight, but in that fight alone you could have saved 500 resources of cav units.

a more realistic example could be 10 wakinas dropping down 8 teepees in crucial area aswell.

Also If your in fortress with cav combat, by mixing both card/unit upgrades and a few teepees will lead to very large stats as they stat modifiers multiply instead of being additive to the base stat it self.
Attachments
sioux IMP dog soldier.PNG (1.6 MiB) Viewed 655 times
Kawapasaka
Posts: 689
Location: Wales (new, south)
Sounds good if you can force them to stay age 2 but I don't think camping teepees would be viable if your opponent can get cannons out.
iCourt
Retired Contributor
Posts: 585
ESO: iCourt
Location: Monterey, California
Hmm do teepees increase villager HP? I don't think they do on RE? Was this fixed?
I_HaRRiiSoN_I
Dragoon
Posts: 245
Location: United Kingdom
As far as im aware it doesn't / it never did
Imperial Noob
Lancer
Posts: 598
Location: dormant
Teepees die too fast, require lots of micro to build in a larger number, not to mention pathing issues, and then the units building them also die. How does that calculate?
iCourt
Retired Contributor
Posts: 585
ESO: iCourt
Location: Monterey, California
Yeah that was an oversight by ES. The description of the card reads it increases all unit HP, but only works on military.

Either the string text needs to be updated, or the card should be changed to effect all nearby units. I always thought they should be used in base or near mines/hunts to be a nuisance for cavalry raids... But since they don't effect villagers and are static buildings they are useless in practice apart from late game.
I_HaRRiiSoN_I
Dragoon
Posts: 245
Location: United Kingdom
If the enemy units are attacking the teepees, then they are not attacking your buffed units under the teepees!! Only 50w per teepee is a minor investment compared to a single cav unit or 2 wakinas.
Kaiserklein
Gendarme
Posts: 7868
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322
Actually we do use that. Sadly EP made it possible to build teepees with infantry, which makes it insanely easy to drop a couple of them with wakinas or cetans before a fight. So essentially you pay like 100w at last second and get an extra 15% hp on your units... And since you can also pay another 100w for a firepit and start dancing for also like 15% attack on your units, it's like being able to get a "combat" kind of card on all your military instantly. So it makes for broken timings. It's probably not abused enough, but it's really strong. On RE you'd need to bring vils with your units all the time which is awkward.

That's the "aggressive" way of using teepees. But the other broken side of teepees is when you drop 5-10 of them in your base, knowing that they'll pay off and even bring you extra resources very quickly, and also makes it super hard for your opponent to push in since your units get an insane hp boost. And the same applies out on the map, on a bunch of resources, typically next to a warhut or something.

Can't realistically sit units between 20 teepees though, as you still need them to be somewhat mobile, and need teepees in several locations on the map. Plus can't really afford to ship these teepees cards. So the exponential boost is not as relevant as in your example, though it does add some extra % of gathering or hp.

This civ is just lame atm
Can sirmusket calculate 5x - x??
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Hazza54321
Gendarme
Posts: 6388
ESO: PrinceofBabu
lol if teepees increased vill hp, lets make a nomad civ have unkillable vills
I_HaRRiiSoN_I
Dragoon
Posts: 245
Location: United Kingdom
yh i wouldnt imagine sending all the cards but teepee attack over Team cav attack if still in 2nd age is a good shout
HUMMAN
Lancer
Posts: 743
ESO: HUMMAN
I think eco boost of tepee does not fit with nomadic cav heavy civ since it is more of a defence stuff. One weird idea: let eco bonus activate when tepees are not in a determined large radius of each other. (Lets say area is like (a standart map's area)/20.)As you see eco bonus will be global. You cant spam it on map since it will be sieged easily like shrines, but you will gain more eco boost as you gain more map control; which fits to game's philosopy that you should gain controle over map. Also fits sioux style where you have cav running around.
dansil92
Lancer
Posts: 724
ESO: dansil92
We all know tashunke suck but does the exponential scaling of tashunke mass then scale exponentially again off of teepees? Guess i got something to see this morning

In all honesty sioux colonial age deck is already loaded with too many cards to allow 2 (!) Cards (3 on RE) room in there, much less actually ship them. Between crates, cav upgrade cards, vills (4/5 depending on patch) or even bison cards, evening star, new ways etc. All of which are far more practical shipments and more relevant. Shame because the teepee idea is cool but sioux is supposed to be mobile and teepees are fixed, meaning outside of like, orinoco you wont have much use for them in 1v1 supremacy

iwillspankyou
Gendarme
Posts: 6164
Kaiserklein wrote:Actually we do use that. Sadly EP made it possible to build teepees with infantry, which makes it insanely easy to drop a couple of them with wakinas or cetans before a fight. So essentially you pay like 100w at last second and get an extra 15% hp on your units... And since you can also pay another 100w for a firepit and start dancing for also like 15% attack on your units, it's like being able to get a "combat" kind of card on all your military instantly. So it makes for broken timings. It's probably not abused enough, but it's really strong. On RE you'd need to bring vils with your units all the time which is awkward.

There is a card in age 2, "agressive polecy", but it allows infantry to build teepees, stables, and warthuts. Only difference is that you will have to spend one shipment on the card.
The main difference is that teepees do not enhance eco like they do in EP.
I just feel that this card is too little used in RE. Would be interesting to see how good it is, if a good player would use it, like you for instance Kaiserklein.
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
iCourt
Retired Contributor
Posts: 585
ESO: iCourt
Location: Monterey, California
Hazza54321 wrote:lol if teepees increased vill hp, lets make a nomad civ have unkillable vills

Instead ESOC has Teepees built in base to boost eco a bunch. Cause ya know... nomad civ and all.

I'm more or less pointing out the card description (or design?) is wrong. String text needs to be changed to list it as only military affected or card needs 'abstractvillager' tagged to it.
Hazza54321
Gendarme
Posts: 6388
ESO: PrinceofBabu
like ive said once that i agreed with that change
SirCallen
Gendarme
Posts: 8573
ESO: SirCallen
Location: Midwest best west
iwillspankyou wrote:There is a card in age 2, "agressive polecy", but it allows infantry to build teepees, stables, and warthuts. Only difference is that you will have to spend one shipment on the card.
The main difference is that teepees do not enhance eco like they do in EP.
I just feel that this card is too little used in RE. Would be interesting to see how good it is, if a good player would use it, like you for instance Kaiserklein.

On EP all infantry units can build teepees by default.

It's very possible teepees are insanely broken and we just haven't seen the full extent of their abuse. I think we'll see a good amount of Sioux at the LAN finals. This is the one EP change that makes significant changes in game design and we just don't know the impact it has until gameplay and time has revealed it to us.
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iwillspankyou
Gendarme
Posts: 6164
@SirCallen well, there was an agreement among most players, that RE Sioux was just not compatible when it came to eco, and the ability to defend their home city for a full on rush. The recent games we have seen in tournaments, give Sioux about 50/50 or less, wins.
My response though. was about the usage of "aggressive policy", and how this card was never used in previous tournaments. I do not know how good it can be, but I really would like to know, if some good players were to play RE, using it. You could @SirCallen cos you are among the best Sioux players imo :)
Hippocrits are the worst of animals. I love elifants.
I_HaRRiiSoN_I
Dragoon
Posts: 245
Location: United Kingdom
If you wernt clear on the viability, The aggressive policy card in either patch is low/shit tier card to send. I mean in EP its sent for you anyway! The euro Arsenal card is a bit of a meme and i wouldnt recommend to include for this low eco civ.

The main reason i looked into this (apart from the curiosity) was to understand the 'math' behind it. This also serves to give sioux another 'tool for their toolbox of strats' but isn't a great stand alone plan. useful for skirm/goon wars.

There is also an upgrade for wakina and rifle attack for 25% for 1,200w which is comparable to the skirm combat card of dutch and can be funded by shipping the 1,000w card.
dansil92
Lancer
Posts: 724
ESO: dansil92
screen64.jpg (635.3 KiB) Viewed 384 times

no they still suck

ChompySaid
Crossbow
Posts: 11
Teepee Monitor.
Dolphincup
Crossbow
Posts: 26
ESO: Dolphincup
dansil92 wrote:
screen64.jpg

no they still suck

gotta get 18 of them crammed in there xD
but it'll work because your opponent will wander into the middle of your teepees not realizing there are stealth cav inside

edit: adding the additional 6 tashunke prowler from the card will increase HP by 34% and attack by 77%, so 18 tashunke w/ 20 teepee would actually have 800 hand attack and 4.2k hp
zoom
Posts: 8985
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland
I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:As a humble lowly 1st lieutenant I always wonder why top players do not use teepees for tactical purposes like map control and gold starving, these days on EP it is a case of drop 5 teepees near your town centre, push out in fortress age and then type 'GG' in the chat box.

...
Because of the flawed design & implementation of Teepees (on both EP and RE), and because of general player inability to adapt and experiment.

Currently effective ESOC Patch notes

Some players: "190w is such an awkward and ugly cost for Villages; not at all like 135w for Manor Houses! Oh, and make Musketeer batches cost 281.25f, 93.75c again!

Blue-haired girl dying
dansil92
Lancer
Posts: 724
ESO: dansil92
Dolphincup wrote:
dansil92 wrote:
screen64.jpg

no they still suck

gotta get 18 of them crammed in there xD
but it'll work because your opponent will wander into the middle of your teepees not realizing there are stealth cav inside

edit: adding the additional 6 tashunke prowler from the card will increase HP by 34% and attack by 77%, so 18 tashunke w/ 20 teepee would actually have 800 hand attack and 4.2k hp

There are 18 all in range. Thats max stats all cards even tashunke hp card. Absolute garbage units