ESOC water maps balance

What could we do to fix water maps ?

Reduce the limit of fishing boats
13
29%
Add Teleport points to cross water
7
16%
Forbid some kind of military boats
5
11%
Other
20
44%
 
Total votes: 45

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Canada forgrin
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by forgrin »

It might be interesting to look into maps like Carribean etc (Indonesia is kinda like this) and have a full water rework. I've posted this before somewhere a long time ago, but things like nerfing ship acceleration (eg adding it), turn rate, making firing less random, can all increase the skill in water fights. Additionally, having larger water maps with bigger channels increases skill and multitasking instead of current maps where it's just a stat war because the water is so cramped.


Other possible changes?

1. Remove dock repair, make a repair function like building where they repair for a cost.

2. Nerf offshore support (ofc), or rework it to switch the ship's cannons to culvs, meaning that they'll win ship wars but be near useless vs units/buildings with the xtra range.

3. Remove all special attacks, monitor and combat boats.
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Poland pecelot
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by pecelot »

wardyb1 wrote:My issue with water in this game and possibly the balance around it, is that it feels clunky. Just the ship micro of setting up to shoot and then not firing is the virtual opposite of land units. It's the same with mortars shooting at boats. You can avoid the shot by simply moving your boat, something that once again can't happen on land. These small differences become frustrating to play with/against, and as a result skews what water feels like to play with/against as a result affects the seeming balance of water play.

Read what Eagle said, and your response really seems to follow a stereotype around water play. WS micro is honestly not an issue, they rarely don't fire and you can't micro each boat individually to gloriously dodge cannonballs. What matters more is numbers, positioning, upgrades, cards.

forgrin wrote:maps like Carribean etc (Indonesia is kinda like this)

Except it's not like this at all?
forgrin wrote:have a full water rework

Yeah, let's rework water entirely now that virtually everyone agrees it's more or less fine :idea:
forgrin wrote:Other possible changes?

1. Remove dock repair, make a repair function like building where they repair for a cost.

2. Nerf offshore support (ofc), or rework it to switch the ship's cannons to culvs, meaning that they'll win ship wars but be near useless vs units/buildings with the xtra range.

3. Remove all special attacks, monitor and combat boats.

1. Wouldn't it be actually better for war ships? Assuming you want to nerf them... :roll:
2. It's not even the best card.
3. ...
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New Zealand zoom
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by zoom »

All I can say about this one is that, apparently, fishing should be more viable on most or all ESOC water-maps, with the exception of Indonesia. Beyond that lie issues unrelated to maps, such as Schooners & Fishing Boat cost, as well as Offshore Support & countering Warships
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United States of America Darwin_
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by Darwin_ »

Idk. I personally don't like water and would like to just not face water maps in tournaments or casual games. Luckily, the veto rules allow for that now. For actual map design, I think it would be cool to see maps without whales but with fish, or with few fish and many whales.
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Poland pecelot
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by pecelot »

Amazonia, Cascade Range, California, Northwest Territory :idea:
Australia Hazza54321
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by Hazza54321 »

Baja florida and indonesia are the only viable ones, id remove offshore support, maybe a max of 35 boats (not sure about this one) bring back team schooners, increase galleon train time for units , its fking annoying to kill almost instant musket or opris or gend fron a galleon that has 4khp and is unreachable , id increase the phish and maybe 1 or 2 more whales on hudson manchuria, make monitor only able to att buildings (like fking mortars, imagine mortars doing 500damage with area to land units)
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United States of America Hidddy_
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by Hidddy_ »

I think there need to be more resources for water control to be worthwhile. Apart from that it's alright, just people don't play sea styles because it's harder and the ep naturally favors land Eco booms. TP lines offer an easier alternative to increasing your Eco and the wall nerf definitely hurts in holding early pressure which is the main weakness of water play.
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by The_red_c0w »

Except on maps like Indonesia, water isn't viable, so what's the issue?
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by Rikikipu »

Hazza54321 wrote:Baja florida and indonesia are the only viable ones, id remove offshore support, maybe a max of 35 boats (not sure about this one) bring back team schooners, increase galleon train time for units , its fking annoying to kill almost instant musket or opris or gend fron a galleon that has 4khp and is unreachable , id increase the phish and maybe 1 or 2 more whales on hudson manchuria, make monitor only able to att buildings (like fking mortars, imagine mortars doing 500damage with area to land units)

That's exactly the kind of proposition that i'm waiting for. Reducing the amount of water resources on the map was a way that mapmaker we used to nerf water (and kinda overnerf water) which can be improved imo. So I agree with you, we need to add more water resources on map, but we need to nerf in a smarter way water like you propose. It seems that there is a consensus about offshore support being too strong. I'll try to make a map without it first and then see how it goes.
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by momuuu »

You need to remove the strong dependency on schooners of water booming. Schooners makes it so that by nature water booming becomes stronger the more all out you go, so with a lot of water resources it just sorta becomes OP. If fishing boats were just a bit cheaper in general, one could for example consider water booming on cascade range.

And yes, I dislike warships in general too.
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by pecelot »

Hazza54321 wrote:increase galleon train time for units , its fking annoying to kill almost instant musket or opris or gend fron a galleon that has 4khp and is unreachable

But it's already way smaller than usual, it's just when you have instant units you get them everywhere — that part I'd like to see fixed more :hmm:

The_red_c0w wrote:Except on maps like Indonesia, water isn't viable, so what's the issue?

:hmm:
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Turkey HUMMAN
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by HUMMAN »

I like to watch water map games, imo it is best when both land and water is valid options for the player, like indonesia. If it is necessity water can be nerfed but i believe there can be ideal maps both favors land and sea play
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by tedere12 »

I'd like to complain about water nerf, I don't play water on EP anymore, one game on EP though I tried to go water on hudson bay winter version and fish ran out so fast that my water boom didn't even pay off! :mad:
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by lemmings121 »

Jerom wrote:You need to remove the strong dependency on schooners of water booming. Schooners makes it so that by nature water booming becomes stronger the more all out you go, so with a lot of water resources it just sorta becomes OP. If fishing boats were just a bit cheaper in general, one could for example consider water booming on cascade range.

And yes, I dislike warships in general too.


remembers me of AOM, where in some maps/civs people would throw docks in age1

In a first thought cheap boats sounds nice too me, civs could do stuff like build one dock in transition to colo and play a "standard" game from there. (sounds fun!)
Problem is that if we had those cheap boats it would drastically change all the game. maybe making booming/turtle the only viable option. (sounds zzzzz...)

But I guess it could work with a well tought map set with it.
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Poland pecelot
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by pecelot »

The only viable option? Not at all lol
In AoE2 you drop a dock in age 1, too, in AoE3 as well, actually.
Schooners-less boats should cost 80/75 wood and schooners should decrease their cost by 30/25 wood, in the first place.
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New Zealand JakeyBoyTH
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

pecelot wrote:The only viable option? Not at all lol
In AoE2 you drop a dock in age 1, too, in AoE3 as well, actually.
Schooners-less boats should cost 80/75 wood and schooners should decrease their cost by 30/25 wood, in the first place.

that would make India more op
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by lemmings121 »

tbf, the india version of schooners is a nice card, I bet there are viable BOs with it that people overlook.
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by pecelot »

JakeyBoyTH wrote:
pecelot wrote:The only viable option? Not at all lol
In AoE2 you drop a dock in age 1, too, in AoE3 as well, actually.
Schooners-less boats should cost 80/75 wood and schooners should decrease their cost by 30/25 wood, in the first place.

that would make India more op

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
civs with schooners are already OP in comparison with civs without it
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by WickedCossack »

HUMMAN wrote:I like to watch water map games


Indeed, they are some of the most enjoyable games to observe.

However there are a number of high level players who don't like to play on water and make a lot of "noise" when it comes up. Hence we are in a situation this tournament where it isn't particularly viable and the maps where it is are extremely limited and even then they can just be vetoed. We haven't seen a single fishing boat this event so far and I'm not sure we are going to. Mayhaps breeze can save the day for once. :lol:

It's a real shame how the influence of some players can affect the enjoyment of a large portion of viewers because of selfishness.
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

pecelot wrote:
JakeyBoyTH wrote:
pecelot wrote:The only viable option? Not at all lol
In AoE2 you drop a dock in age 1, too, in AoE3 as well, actually.
Schooners-less boats should cost 80/75 wood and schooners should decrease their cost by 30/25 wood, in the first place.

that would make India more op

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
civs with schooners are already OP in comparison with civs without it

I mean India would just make boats instead of vills pretty much free after the 2 trickles and still have room for houses. then all they do it chop for boats.
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by pecelot »

It could be adjusted to India (tweaking schooners card) — it's still a dock investment, in the end :!:
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by lemmings121 »

after the tournament season ends, just make a patch update changing fishing boats to 50w. just for the fun of it. rollback later :P :P
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by born2believe »

lemmings121 wrote:after the tournament season ends, just make a patch update changing fishing boats to 50w. just for the fun of it. rollback later :P :P


And schooners makes them free. :)
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by momuuu »

WickedCossack wrote:
HUMMAN wrote:I like to watch water map games


Indeed, they are some of the most enjoyable games to observe.

However there are a number of high level players who don't like to play on water and make a lot of "noise" when it comes up. Hence we are in a situation this tournament where it isn't particularly viable and the maps where it is are extremely limited and even then they can just be vetoed. We haven't seen a single fishing boat this event so far and I'm not sure we are going to. Mayhaps breeze can save the day for once. :lol:

It's a real shame how the influence of some players can affect the enjoyment of a large portion of viewers because of selfishness.

Apperantly water is not considered fun by a pretty large amount of players. Cant say thats selfishness tbh.
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Re: ESOC water maps balance

Post by WickedCossack »

I wouldn't say large amount, I would say vocal.

And yes, when you can get 20k veiws on youtube or 500+ on twitch for some additional variety it's pretty selfish in my opinion.

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