Question about maps

Netherlands momuuu
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Re: Question about maps

Post by momuuu »

It's amazing how you literally fail to understand anything garja. I've decided its not worht arguing with you, you live in your own special garja land and I can't pull you out of it.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by momuuu »

princeofcarthage wrote:
momuuu wrote:
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You're balancing around features that can all be deleted. At some point we draw a line and decide that we're balancing some set of features. You can't build up balance from nothing and then add features in order to end up with a balanced game. If you take a look at the efforts of the EP team they balanced the game with trading posts in mind: Otto was nerfed, Iroquois' inherent ability to get a starting TP was removed, Germany and France received minor nerfs, Dutch received buffs, it was considered to buff Russia. It was the starting point and ends up being a logical starting point, for I would argue balancing the game with a minimal amount of changes is best done with TP maps in mind.

Without changing many aspects of the game, it is not possible to end up with a balanced game if you consider both types of maps. Trading posts are too influential as a building. Now the effect that the entire switch to balanced maps has had, and the fact that TPs might force an unfun meta (or at least one that isn't consistent with the original game) is something I strongly agree with. Solving that by creating a very inconsistent set of maps doesn't at all seem like a wise decision to me. Rather, nerfing trading posts slightly (nerf starting TP please), or nerfing defensive options a tiny bit, would give a much better result in the form of a similair meta to RE and a consistent and balanced mappool. The anomaly of a no TP map is fun, but at this point we're not looking at anomalies anymore.

Not really I am talking about balancing the game on the most basic version, stage from where you delete anything else it basically changes core game and couldn't no longer be defined as aoe 3. Removing TP certainly can't be considered that stage... what you are saying is just your point and what you like and trying to force that on others. I think the community already spoke and its you all alone here. Current stage allows players the CHOICE to choose what they want, tp or no tp and thats the way it should be

How the fuck would an additional map set force anything on anyone? How can you even interpretet my statements in that way lol. wtf. Besides, it was marco's point initially.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by Garja »

momuuu wrote:It's amazing how you literally fail to understand anything garja. I've decided its not worht arguing with you, you live in your own special garja land and I can't pull you out of it.

It is you that fail to understand but ok :flowers:

momuuu wrote:How the fuck would an additional map set force anything on anyone? How can you even interpretet my statements in that way lol. wtf. Besides, it was marco's point initially.

Because it a rated pool. Rated pools are limited (gonna sac another one). If you want a specific map you can just select it. Also can make a custom map set and play unrated.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by princeofcarthage »

momuuu wrote:
princeofcarthage wrote:
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Not really I am talking about balancing the game on the most basic version, stage from where you delete anything else it basically changes core game and couldn't no longer be defined as aoe 3. Removing TP certainly can't be considered that stage... what you are saying is just your point and what you like and trying to force that on others. I think the community already spoke and its you all alone here. Current stage allows players the CHOICE to choose what they want, tp or no tp and thats the way it should be

How the fuck would an additional map set force anything on anyone? How can you even interpretet my statements in that way lol. wtf. Besides, it was marco's point initially.

okay last post regarding this, I think we are past map sets, we are talking about balancing game. you want a map set I can give you in 5 mins it's not even hard work, different story that it won't work cuz of anti cheat system though and its probably tedious updating every now and then along with anti cheats and probably that's the reason why such rather personal requests are not entertained, you get a good player base to support this idea and m sure it will be implemented, but for 2 ppl I don't think its worth the time and efforts,
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Re: Question about maps

Post by momuuu »

In this thread theres post from 7 people and likes from one additional. Gamevideo, you, garja, riki and richard support no TP maps, while marco me and yurashic (through likes) support this extra map pool. Extrapolating this would not at all mean it's just something for 2 people, but for a large part of the community. Not that I think this is factual reasoning, but neither is your '2 ppl'. 5 to 3 is just one person off for a 50-50 split.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by DaRkNiTe1698 »

I don't get why you are discussing about the map balance now, my thread was not even regarding this. Making two separate folders (like standard maps and Esoc maps), named TP maps and No TP maps would only make things neater, and avoid a shitload of rehosts. I never blamed no tp maps or something, but I want to be able to know what kind of map I am going to play before to ready up, without actually choosing one. I still don't get why you don't want to do that, it would probably cost you less time than making not inherent replies on this thread I guess. By "not inherent replies" I mean something that regards the balance, a topic I didn't ever want to discuss about in this thread
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Re: Question about maps

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Post by Rikikipu »

momuuu wrote:I find no-TP maps somewhat interesting as a change of pace, but I also find that in the current random map pool you get a no TP map with such frequency that it is not a change of pace anymore. It's true that there are many parameters when it comes to balancing a mu, although one must admit that the viability of water is often not present (fortunately, balancing would be harder then), that the amount of safe resources is relatively consistent and that the size of the map doesn't seem to matter much at all. Out of all these factors, the TP line is by far the most important part.

Kynesie helped for the last map and water patch updates, if you think that water is not viable, please contact him, and tell him he is wrong. Safe resources are not the same at all between Iowa and Mendocino for instance, map size and chocked points is also super important, you can deny half of the map with an Agra in Colorado, whereas in Wadmalaw it won't grant to you that much map control. Actually that is the whole concept of having different and new maps, it brings different and new strategies.

momuuu wrote:In the last point you outline a core problem with the current EP setup: Mapmakers can dictate the meta on their own and are never properly adressed. You're basically trying to have a war with the patch team, that's not a great state of affairs is it. I would like to see the patch team and the mapmaker team cooperate in their vision and create a balanced map pool in that sense. I have before clearly adressed a much more structural problem towards the semi-ff/boom meta that revolves around actually considering the effect of the maps in the balance and have also suggested different sort of maps. But I do not see how creating a large number of inherently inbalanced maps to be a good solution to any problem.

We don't dictate anything, there are boundaries that can't be crossed. Err I'm not in war with the patch team because we have 'only' 75% of TP maps, let's be serious here.

momuuu wrote:At some point we draw a line and decide that we're balancing some set of features.

Who draw the line, and who said the EP was only going te change a certain set of feature ? And what is this set of feature by the way ?
momuuu wrote:You can't build up balance from nothing and then add features in order to end up with a balanced game.

Wrong, they try to balance broken aspects of the game meanwhile sticking as much as possible with RE patch. They didn't do changes with TPs in mind especially. The ottoman mosquee tweak is a counter-example.
momuuu wrote:the fact that TPs might force an unfun meta (or at least one that isn't consistent with the original game)

As various people has told to you, it may be unfun for you, but it is not the case at all for everyone. About consistency 25% of no tp map is more or less the same as RE patch, so I don't know about what you are talking about.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by momuuu »

I guess you can't objective determine that my point of view is right, as often the case, but you also can't objectively deny that there's consistent reasoning behind wanting a very standard mappool. So then, why not make something that some people might really like?

Ive always thought we could reach a much more balanced state of the game if people actually fully focussed on TP maps. At the very least, balancing would objectively become easier. I'd also say that the EP team is objectively failing to reach optimal balance, and thus making the process of balancing objectively easier would make the balance objectively better. If you consider no TP maps so much fun that you take the imbalance with it, then that's a point of view, but marco's, mine (and yurashic's) point of view, at the very least, is that we would prefer playing on a very consistent mappool where you can't get screwed over by maps (I personally prefer eliminating factors such as livestock, amount of resources available, amount of TPs available and amount of water available, although these things combined put serious constraints upon the mapmaking clearly, actually I personally even prefer non random maps). These are valid positions and there's not much of a loss when you make a map pool in line with these opinions.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by princeofcarthage »

momuuu wrote: I guess you can't objective determine that my point of view is right, as often the case, but you also can't objectively deny that there's consistent reasoning behind wanting a very standard mappool. why are you so narcissist?

So then, why not make something that some people might really like? Really? Who told you people hate current map pool?

Ive always thought we could reach a much more balanced state of the game if people actually fully focussed on TP maps. At the very least, balancing would objectively become easier. I'd also say that the EP team is objectively failing to reach optimal balance, and thus making the process of balancing objectively easier would make the balance objectively better. If you consider no TP maps so much fun that you take the imbalance with it, then that's a point of view, but marco's, mine (and yurashic's) point of view, at the very least, is that we would prefer playing on a very consistent mappool where you can't get screwed over by maps (I personally prefer eliminating factors such as livestock, amount of resources available, amount of TPs available and amount of water available, although these things combined put serious constraints upon the mapmaking clearly, actually I personally even prefer non random maps). These are valid positions and there's not much of a loss when you make a map pool in line with these opinions.

I am sorry to say jerom but community doesn't revolve around you. your every post is " I think " " I want " "I prefer" " I thought" "I etc n etc" while everyone is entitled to their opinion, the correct approach is to discuss that with community, instead here you are trying to force your opinions and thoughts on everyone. You are even unable to justify why I am wrong and you are right while everyone has given explanation as to why they think you are wrong. You are just counter questioning us like " why your thing makes sense and mine doesn't" kind of stuff. You are just revolving around Tps be considered base for balancing, tps be considered base they are used so long, they make some civilizations playable, in every single post just different wording without bringing anything new and logical into argument.

can you even tell me what is wrong in balancing the game from base and then working up the ladder? which actually achieves even your goal of having balanced civ on tp maps (albeit in a slightly different method) while still keeping the option of non tp viable and open and leaving that choice to players ?
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Re: Question about maps

Post by momuuu »

I've been doing a course on philosofy and thus I'm simply trying to distuingish between opinion and logical fact. There's a lot of "I think" in this world. I'm still not trying to force my opinion at all, I'm literally just giving arguments for at all preferring a specific sort of map pool. Thats literally all I'm doing. I can also be less polite: I think you're straight up wrong and don't understand a first thing about game balance. That'd be an opinion for the record. Another opinion: You're being an absolute dumbass for not understanding that asking for a different sort of map pool is the same as thinking everyone should play on that one thing you prefer. It comes down to a lack of reading skills, I'd guess.

Happy now? Do I need to point out to you what the language in my posts applies or will you read it again yourself?
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Re: Question about maps

Post by Rikikipu »

I swear to God, I was going to write "Jerom although we disagree, thank you for making constructive criticisms towards map related topic in a respectful way" hahaha
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Re: Question about maps

Post by momuuu »

Rikikipu wrote:I swear to God, I was going to write "Jerom although we disagree, thank you for making constructive criticisms towards map related topic in a respectful way" hahaha

I tried to be constructive and respectful and then someone calls me a narcist. Couldn't help it. Sorry.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by gibson »

momuuu wrote:
Rikikipu wrote:I swear to God, I was going to write "Jerom although we disagree, thank you for making constructive criticisms towards map related topic in a respectful way" hahaha

I tried to be constructive and respectful and then someone calls me a narcist. Couldn't help it. Sorry.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by momuuu »

gibson wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Rikikipu wrote:I swear to God, I was going to write "Jerom although we disagree, thank you for making constructive criticisms towards map related topic in a respectful way" hahaha

I tried to be constructive and respectful and then someone calls me a narcist. Couldn't help it. Sorry.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by princeofcarthage »

At first, in line with marco post I suppose it was he wants a different map pool because to save time since he personally doesn't like non tp maps which was seconded by your post as well. Even assumed that the topic about map pool was closed and was about balancing the game, since that is what is being discussed for so long. Actually more about the approach towards balance rather than balance itself. But if your posts do imply like you are saying that you expect everyone to play to your preferred version of game, then your post is actually a prime example of why you are narcissist.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by momuuu »

princeofcarthage wrote:At first, in line with marco post I suppose it was he wants a different map pool because to save time since he personally doesn't like non tp maps which was seconded by your post as well. Even assumed that the topic about map pool was closed and was about balancing the game, since that is what is being discussed for so long. Actually more about the approach towards balance rather than balance itself. But if your posts do imply like you are saying that you expect everyone to play to your preferred version of game, then your post is actually a prime example of why you are narcissist.

Are you trolling?
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Re: Question about maps

Post by richard »

It s obvious: Jerom and Marco want to play on TP-Maps only because they only feel strong when they got a TP.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by momuuu »

richard wrote:It s obvious: Jerom and Marco want to play on TP-Maps only because they only feel strong when they got a TP.

I main arguably the best civ on no tp maps..
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Re: Question about maps

Post by zoom »

A lot of people want this. AFAIK everyone except Garja and Riki. I think it's a good idea, although really people should just pre-select the map; one should know what map is being played when picking one's civilization, from a fairness perspective. A map set such as this would cater to the same idea, with the added bonus of unpredictable variety.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by Garja »

From a fairness perspective every civ should have a concrete shot at winning on every map type, being it TP, no TP, land, water, low res, high res, etc. Can't really make it a balance/principle argument for such map pool.

TP/noTP is just one possible split, not different from water/no water. I agree there wouldn't be nothing wrong in providing these subgroups of maps if there were infinite viable rated sets. But afaik we only have 4-5 sets to rename and they're all already used at the moment. So ye, just select a map or make a custom map pool and play unrated.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by DaRkNiTe1698 »

richard wrote:It s obvious: Jerom and Marco want to play on TP-Maps only because they only feel strong when they got a TP.
More like my civ feels stronger when I am playing on a TP map
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Re: Question about maps

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:From a fairness perspective every civ should have a concrete shot at winning on every map type, being it TP, no TP, land, water, low res, high res, etc. Can't really make it a balance/principle argument for such map pool.

TP/noTP is just one possible split, not different from water/no water. I agree there wouldn't be nothing wrong in providing these subgroups of maps if there were infinite viable rated sets. But afaik we only have 4-5 sets to rename and they're all already used at the moment. So ye, just select a map or make a custom map pool and play unrated.

because the K&B mapset really can't be replaced
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Re: Question about maps

Post by Garja »

Well, that's not a decision I can take. Also bear in mind we need two sets for every split.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by Rikikipu »

Anyway from my point of view as I mentioned before, I don't want to make sets for TP maps only, but feel free to make your own one.
I mean you are not going to convince me, that's it.
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Re: Question about maps

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:Well, that's not a decision I can take. Also bear in mind we need two sets for every split.

I think maybe what marco wanted is a single mappool with all the more standard maps (so normal TP line, not excessive amounts of water, not too low on resources) or something along those lines. That'd only require removing the K&B maps.

Although I must admit those are really great maps too !!!!

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