K&B Mapset Discussion Thread

[tilanus]

This is the discussion thread for the random maps in the Knights & Barbarians mapset ("K&B Maps"). These maps were not made by ESOC Maps Team, but AOE_Fan from the Knights & Barbarians mod who is looking for the community's suggestions how to make the maps more balanced in order to improve them. These maps were originally not developed with competitive standards in mind, so please be kind and constructive when reviewing.


KnB Maps Screenshots thread

Map list

• Alps
• Andalusia
• Bosphorus
• Crete
• Cyprus
• Dalmatia
• Danish Straits
• Finland
• Greek Archipelago
• Hedjaz
• Ireland
• Lake Geneva
• Lombardy
• Low Countries
• Massif Central
• Morea
• Norway
• Portugal
• Pyrenees
• Rhodopes
• Sahara
• Savannah
• Sicily
• Sinai
• Sweden
• Tuscany

Preamble by AOE_Fan

Hi, AOE_Fan here.

I do acknowledge the fact that some of these maps like Greek Archipelago are completely ill-fitting for online play due to too water heavy gameplay. However, what is great about these maps is that codewise they all use the same, rather minimalistic format, which allows quick editing for all of the maps. This is definitely not the case for maps made by ES where you have lots of messy or even unused parts of code. TAD maps are especially notorious for this imo.

While they clearly aren't as balanced as maps made by the ESOC Maps Team, I personally do see potential in some of them as they definitely have different design compared to ES maps, which could bring a new edge to things. I'm looking for:

• - Suggestions how to make maps more balanced are really appreciated. This would probably mean the placement of resources/natives/trade routes/players or the general size of maps, although feedback in terms of map areas (water, cliffs, lakes, etc) are welcome too.
  
  
• - As the maps were originally made for a mod where one could easily add more terrains, watertypes and other types of fauna/flora, some of the maps visuals or geographical accuracy are a bit off. Due to this also the natives and maptypes are placeholders.

[deleted_user0]

more maps cant hurt imo. and as long as theyre not mixed in in the normal map sets, it doesnt really matter if theyre balanced or not. as long as theyre fun. you can always decide not to play them rated

[musketeer925]

Yeah, I believe we'll be including them as an additional map set. This is actually the thread Tilanus wanted to be a public one after the release, so we'll probably delete comments like this on it before moving it.

[zoom]

Based entirely on this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=2412

These maps look like they might be playable with minor adjustments:

Ardennes (make Trade Route symmetrical)
Crete (halve the length of the ridge)
Hedjaz (decrease number of mines and add hunts and trees)
Low Countries (requires swamps to be passable)
Massif Central (add more hunts and improve fairness of resource distribution)
Portugal (add more or wider passages or both)
Pyrenees (make middle choke less severe and add hunts)
Savannah (potentially decrease size of middle feature)
Sweden (remove middle lake)
Tuscany (add mines and improve fairness of resource distribution)

Naturally rebalancing of natural resources and their distribution relating to player spawns applies to all maps to one degree or another. I wouldn't really bother with any other maps than those mentioned above – I think these are the only viable candidates for competitive play.

[zoom]

I notice this is 43 maps, as opposed to 26. Could you make a similar mini-map overview of the 17 new ones?

[tilanus]

I notice this is 43 maps, as opposed to 26. Could you make a similar mini-map overview of the 17 new ones?

Phew, that'll be a lot of work, but I will try. No guarantee for it being ready at release though..

[zoom]

That's fine, I can just look through the map-set post-release so don't sweat it!

[zoom]

Alps needs additional food and crossings between the three land-masses.
Andalusia needs additional food and longer rush-distance.
Ardennes needs additional food and mine rebalancing as well as a more symmetrical trade-route.
Bospherus needs crossings that aren't too choked and increased rush-distance.
Crete seems to no longer feature the ridge down the middle. Was the map changed? Needs one herdable hunt added to both sides.
Cyprus is too similar to Crete and with more flaws.
Dalmatia shallows need to be passable.
Danish Straits needs Native Settlement placement rebalancing and additional food.
Finland needs additional food as well as food and mine rebalancing.
Greek Archipelago needs additional food but will never be a competitive map.
Hedjaz needs additional food and mine rebalancing.
Ireland needs additional food and mine rebalancing.
Lake Geneva needs additional food, fish and mine rebalancing.
Lombardy needs shortened lake ends and additional food and fish.
Low Countries needs additional food and mines.
Massif Central needs additional food and mine rebalancing.
Morea we can just forget about.
Norway needs almost halved inlet length (more land towards the shore of the bay) and a lot more resources.
Portugal Needs more food and at least one more crossing.
Pyrenees needs more resources and better mine placement as well as another pass of equal size. I can see this map being great for Treaty.
Rhodopes we can just leave as well.
Sahara needs more food, especially in the middle true to its design, and improved mine rebalancing.
Savannah seems incredibly similar to Sahara. Were they made by two different people at the same time?? We could turn them into a combination and call it Oasis, in the style of previous AoE titles.
Sicily seems strange. Needs a bit more fish, more food, wood and coin. Wood needs a better spread I think. Also, what's the point of these underwater trade-routes?
Sweden needs a fixed mini-map texture, more food and mines as well as fish.
Tuscany is a good foundation but the resource pattern needs to continue more towards the TCs.

Natives should be fixed in general, I think, in terms of type and placement.

Are there only 25 or 26 K&B maps included in the beta?

[Durokan]

The underwater trade routes are a legacy from the mod. The mod has water trade routes so when it was converted back to TAD it was left as a normal trade route.

[spanky4ever]

Thx a lot guys!! Very nice new maps. Even though I cant compete with the OP guys on the patch, I can play AI and its refreshing to get new maps. U r doing a fantastic job and I really appreciate it

[Papist]

I played a game with gibson on Savannah yesterday, and it was a bit of an ordeal. First of all, the "KnB Maps" options kept making the game go OOS, so we had to choose a specific map (Savannah). On the map loading screen, there was no map description, meaning that I had no idea whether there were TPs or natural features. When the game finally started, the map was very disappointing. There are very few hunts (gibson was stuck way outside his base hunting elephants at 6:30), tree spawns made for horrific pathing, and there were very few mines (1 gold in base, others way off in the corners of the map). And the map was way too big (bigger than Siberia) with a boring beige color.

[Mr_Bramboy]

Keep in mind the maps weren't created for competitive play and/or for the ESOC patch. They're purely because the maps already existed and the creator of the K&B mod didn't want his work to go to waste. I haven't actually played the maps due to the servers being down a lot recently, but I'll try the (mostly water) maps when I get the chance.

[gibson]

Yea, while I'm sure the map is close to what Savanah actually is, this map doesn't really fit well with the current eco/tp meta.....

[pecelot]

So maybe consider this feedback to make the maps balanced and somewhat playable

[momuuu]

It's in there to see if any maps are worth editing in the first place I think. So savannah is a no or was the concept or sth behind it cool?

[gibson]

It's in there to see if any maps are worth editing in the first place I think. So savannah is a no or was the concept or sth behind it cool?

I think its defiantly playable, it's just extremely low resource so people will bitch and whine and refuse to play on it

[Durokan]

It's in there to see if any maps are worth editing in the first place I think. So savannah is a no or was the concept or sth behind it cool?

we've talked about combining savannah and the desert-y savannah to make an oasis map.

[lemmings121]

Is there any place where we can see which maps are which?
all I have is the twenty-something miniatures in the patch notes, and the names in-game with no description... so is pretty hard to choose and remember the maps!

on a side question.. when you select a map in a room in game, there is a small picture ilustrating it... wouldn't be possible to put a smaill pic of the minimap in there? I mean, for all maps. Sure is something ugly/different from the original game design... but is just a HUGE improvement on usability..

[momuuu]

It's in there to see if any maps are worth editing in the first place I think. So savannah is a no or was the concept or sth behind it cool?

I think its defiantly playable, it's just extremely low resource so people will bitch and whine and refuse to play on it

But thats not the idea I think. The maps are easy to edit (at least according to the original post) which means we can turn them into esoctype maps if we want to. Its just about figuring out which maps seem cool and thus worth editing.

[iCourt]

I think its defiantly playable, it's just extremely low resource so people will bitch and whine and refuse to play on it

This is good criticism. We want to hear the bad... And the good... What peeps think need to be adjusted in order to acquire some new playable balanced maps.

Frankly I'd like to see a map that used some of the neat things found in the campaign. Bonnie Hill is a great example of this. Other examples would be the treasure ship gold mines and unique treasure sets. The maps could become a lot more creative.

[gibson]

I dont want it to change though. I really didn't like playing on it, but it's different from the current high resource maps, thus current meta play would not work on it. Because of that no one will ever play on it, but I think it would be cool if a different meta evolved for really low resource maps. Right now all the maps are becoming retextured versions of each other with slight differences that push a very eco heavy style of play and punish anything less. Anyone who loses on it will just say "I lost because no hunts" and never play on it again, when in reality they didn't lose because of no hunts, they lost because they went eco heavy on a map where you can only get two small hunts into your base.

[Papist]

It's in there to see if any maps are worth editing in the first place I think. So savannah is a no or was the concept or sth behind it cool?

I think its defiantly playable, it's just extremely low resource so people will bitch and whine and refuse to play on it

I don't have a problem with low resource maps, but you had better make sure they spawn decently if you are going to make them like that. Savannah was also a huge, empty map with almost no treasures. It wasn't a terrible concept, it just needs to be shrunken down and have the spawns fixed.

[iNcog]

Definitely is spelled "definite" + "ly"

[gibson]

Definitely is spelled "definite" + "ly"

Maybe I meant to say defiantly? You know my name not my story

[iNcog]

ah, you rebel u