Land maps comparision

[Rikikipu]

Hey guys, i've done an Excel sheet in order to get statistics from land maps for both EP and RE.



I'm pretty intersted to see what this community think about that, and also intersted to see top players telling their point of view linked with the current meta.
Well?

[Garja]

Nice stats!

I'm actually doing something similar for all ESOC maps. It will be part of a more comprehensive map thread.
I don't think I'll include res/size ratios even tho it seems to provide quite a useful information.

[momuuu]

Only thing that is missing is the stagecoach TP factor I guess. For example, GP's 3 TPs is nothing like Arkansas's 3 TPs, because on the first stagecoach isn't really a possibility.

[pecelot]

Great work, but I think the results would be slightly different had you taken into account all the maps from both sets.
Also, why 5,5 TPs on Deccan?
And does EP balance some RE maps?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Well ESOC maps obviously have more resources but there are 2 things we should consider.
1) Berries aren't hunts, they favour some civs so imo they shouldn't count as food (I mean, if you're gathering on berries while your opponent is hunting with ST you're losing let's be honest), so Klondike doesn't have this ratio.

2) The amount of resources on a map isn't what matters, if so Sonora would be the most greedy map.
What matter is the amount of food you have near your base.
If you consider that, Tibet is at the average level of RE maps and same for Klondike.

But my main complains were about the balance of this food being random. As I already said, Adirondacks, kamchatka and Arkansas are fair 50% of the time, which is not enough.

[Kaiserklein]

That's really interesting, the only thing I would have liked though is a distinction between berries and hunts because most of the time berries are rather useless as long as there are hunts left on the map.
For example, klondike is a no food map, yet when you look at this you see it has the highest amount of food among all esoc maps. But in the facts, the 2/3 of its food is not very relevant

[Garja]

Klondike actually has both many hunts and berries. When I'll post the reference sheet you will see yourself.
Also, on a related note, I'd like to point out that berries are way underrated.

[noissance]

Also, why 5,5 TPs on Deccan?

Sometimes there's 2 TP's that spawn in the side, instead of 3. (6+5)/2 = 5.5
Also, why do people use commas instead of decimal points?

[pecelot]

I thought it was always 5 TPs? 2 on one side and 3 on another?
In Poland at the very least we have the roles or dots and commas in such cases reversed.
A milion and a half for us is 1.000.000,5 instead of 1,000,000.5 :)

[[Armag] diarouga]

I thought it was always 5 TPs? 2 on one side and 3 on another?
In Poland at the very least we have the roles or dots and commas in such cases reversed.
A milion and a half for us is 1.000.000,5 instead of 1,000,000.5 :)

Same in France.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Also, on a related note, I'd like to point out that berries are way underrated.

More or less than rams?

[zoom]

It's true without much doubt that berries are underrated, but for non-expansion civilizations there is a significant difference once Steel Traps has been researched. Conversely, this also means that expansion civilizations all have improvements affecting berries.

[[Armag] diarouga]

It's true without much doubt that berries are underrated, but for non-expansion civilizations there is a significant difference once Steel Traps has been researched.

As China or india it's ok but just not with nilla civs.

[zoom]

It's true without much doubt that berries are underrated, but for non-expansion civilizations there is a significant difference once Steel Traps has been researched.

As China or india it's ok but just not with nilla civs.

It depends on the match-up. Generally speaking, if an expansion civilization is playing against a non-expansion civilization, not only is the former favored (due to having berry gathering improvements), but the latter unfavored (due to having ineffective Steel Traps).

[Kaiserklein]

Klondike actually has both many hunts and berries. When I'll post the reference sheet you will see yourself.
Also, on a related note, I'd like to point out that berries are way underrated.

Just launched klondike, there are 40 berries. This means 40 000 food in berries out of 74 400, so 34 400 food in hunts. Which is the least you can get on all ep maps, so no, it doesn't have many hunts, even compared to most RE maps it's low lol.
Berries are just shit, if you gather from berries for a long time while your opponent has steel traps and gathers on hunts, you just lose with most civs. Berries in base at least can be useful to allow you to get enough food to quickly fight back for map control, but not for too long otherwise you get outscaled. Berries out of base are irrelevant, except when you reach the point where there are no hunts left on the map, which is a minority of games (and even then, you will want to transition to mills at some point, for upgrades/safety)

[Darwin_]

Interesting to see how low-hunt kamchatka actually is. I have always thought that map has way to many hunts. I would like to see more maps with high amounts of coin, however, if we arent going to buff plantations. Could you also update these sheets to include livestock as well, becuase that is very important IMO because maps like mongolia are pretty low hunt but still have a lot of food.

[Garja]

Klondike actually has both many hunts and berries. When I'll post the reference sheet you will see yourself.
Also, on a related note, I'd like to point out that berries are way underrated.

Just launched klondike, there are 40 berries. This means 40 000 food in berries out of 74 400, so 34 400 food in hunts. Which is the least you can get on all ep maps, so no, it doesn't have many hunts, even compared to most RE maps it's low lol.
Berries are just shit, if you gather from berries for a long time while your opponent has steel traps and gathers on hunts, you just lose with most civs. Berries in base at least can be useful to allow you to get enough food to quickly fight back for map control, but not for too long otherwise you get outscaled. Berries out of base are irrelevant, except when you reach the point where there are no hunts left on the map, which is a minority of games (and even then, you will want to transition to mills at some point, for upgrades/safety)

Klondke should have hunts ranging from 41300 to 43600. Then again, I'm talking about next version which is slightly different.
Berries are indeed underrated, especially when in big clumps.
First of all berries don't deplete. Out of a bison, even with steel traps you get about 450f with 7 vills. 430f with 4 vills. That's about 10-15% food loss.
Secondly, and less intuitivly, berries imply basically zero walking time compared to hunts. Not only 1 berry bush is already 2 bisons (3 of any 400f animal), but also berry patches generally count for more than one hunt. Villager that are walking from an animal to another have an inefficiency of -100% which is greater than the difference between berries and hunts gathering rate.
Now, it is obvious that overall hunts are significantly better, but still berries are underrated, and on maps that have many they can't be ignored.
I personally find berries very helpful to keep constant villager production. Leaving 6 vills on berries in midgame means there will always be a villager in queue.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Leaving 6 vills on berries in midgame means there will always be a villager in queue.

This or having a decent macro.

[Kaiserklein]

Berries are just what you use when you don't have access to hunts really... With steel traps you gather food at 1.1/s from hunts and at 0.67/s from berries, which is approx 65% faster. The walking times are nowhere near relevant compared to this difference, especially with good macro when you herd properly. Hunts depleting doesn't matter as long as you have enough hunts, like on most esoc maps. So yeah, you use berries if you can't avoid it, otherwise it sucks

[Garja]

Leaving 6 vills on berries in midgame means there will always be a villager in queue.

This or having a decent macro.

Ye as if with good macro your vills teleport from hunt to hunt.

With steel traps you gather food at 1.1/s from hunts and at 0.67/s from berries, which is approx 65% faster. The walking times are nowhere near relevant compared to this difference, especially with good macro when you herd properly.

No way relevant is exactly what I'm disagreeing here. It's hard to appreciate the impact of things when they can't be misured. Also not all civs have steel traps.

[deleted_user0]

klondike is a bit insane? lol

also im surprised that the hunt/size ratio between kamchatka and tibet is quite small while tibet is considered low food and chatka* high food. i guess its because the new tibet is bit bigger but not more food?
*thanks to pecelot

[Garja]

This data seems to include herdables too. When talking about hunts, Tibet has more than Kamchatka. Size has not been changed.

[Mr_Bramboy]

Also, why 5,5 TPs on Deccan?

Sometimes there's 2 TP's that spawn in the side, instead of 3. (6+5)/2 = 5.5
Also, why do people use commas instead of decimal points?

In the Netherlands dots act as a tool to improve your reading experience. For example 1.000.000 = 1 million, while 5.5 = 55. Commas act as a decimal, so 1,2 = 1 1/5

[deleted_user0]

dafuq Bram?! where did they teach you that?

in holland the comma is used to seperate whole numbers, the dot is used for anything smaller than a whole number. so its 1,000,000 for one million and 1.5 for one and a half. or for example 1,000,000.5 for one million and 50 cents.

[momuuu]

I think I'm with bram. I actually don't use dots or commas to clarify 1 000 000 but spaces because thats uniformely understandable.