TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Germany lordraphael
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TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

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Post by lordraphael »

I let the test run 10 min on every map
5 tp maps:

High plains: 6153 res in 10 min. 96% 96%
615 res/min
123res/tp/min

Klondike: 5340 res in 10 min. 84% 84%
534 res/min
106 res/tp/min

Great Lakes: 6352 res. in 10 min. 100% 100%
635 res/min.
127res/tp/min.

Tibet : 5750 res in 10 min. 90% 90%
575 res/min.
115res/tp/min.

4 tp maps:

New England: 4360 res in 10 min. 98% ~68.6%
436 res/min
109 res/tp/min.

Arizona :4451res in 10 min, 100% ~70%
445 res/min.
111res/tp/min.

Mendoccino: 3714 res in 10 min 83.5% ~58.5%
371 res/min.
92res/tp/min.

Hudson Bay: 4278 res in 10 min 96% ~67.3%
428 res /min.
107 res/tp/min
3 Tp maps:

Arkansas : 3470 res in 10 min. 89% ~54.6%
347 res/min.
115 res/tp/min.

Baja California: 3551 res in 10 min. 91% ~55.9%
351 res/min.
118 res/tp/min.

Colorado: 3877 res in 10 min. ~100% ~61%
388 res/min.
129 res/tp/min.

Manchuria: 3900 res in 10 min. 100% ~61%
390 res/min.
130 res/tp/min.

2 tp maps:

Bonnie Springs: 2200 res in 10 min. ~82.5% ~34.6%
220 res/min.
110 res/tp/min.

Kamtschatka: 2549 res in 10 min. ~95.5% ~40.1%
255 res/min.
127.5 res/tp/min.

Florida : 2668 res in 10 min. 100% 42%
267 res/min.
133.5 res/tp/min.

Manchac : 2427 res in 10 min. ~91% ~38.2%
243 res/min.
121.5 res/tp/min.

Adirondacks: 2200 res in 10 min. ~82.5% ~34.6%
220 res/min.
110 res/tp/min.

Tassili : 2493 res in 10 min. ~93.4% ~39.2%
249 res/min.
124.5 res/tp/min.



The first percentage value compares only those tp maps with the same amount of tps. The second value shows how well the maps performs regardless of the number of tps.

Conclusion:
Not the length of the tp route is the deciding factor of a routes effectiveness, the number of tps available on a map is.
It is true that a longer tp route generates more ressources, but that number is only marginal. This can be very well seen if you compare arkansas with baja california. Both maps have 3 tps however one is short and the other very long. The difference between the ressources generated per min on this maps is only 4 ressources (!) , or an astonishing 1.3 % increase. However the more tps a map has the bigger this difference gets. Klondike gathers 16% less ressources than the front-runner Great Lakes, while both have the same amount of accessible tps, Great Lakes just has a much longer tp route.
Mendoccino is a special case. Because that map has 2 very very short tp routes so in terms of effectiveness its more a 3 tp map than 4 one. Colorado has the same design as Mendoccino, but has 2 insanely long tp routes which make up for not being one continuos tp line.

For me it is obvious that maps with more than 3 tps give civs which naturally take the map and can easily incorporate a tp boom way to big of an advantage.
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Re: TPs Gather rathes on ESOC maps

Post by KINGofOsmane »

+1
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Re: TPs Gather rathes on ESOC maps

Post by Garja »

Ye it is known that every route gives more or less the same amount of res/tp, as the bounty is calculated on the lenght (in tiles) of the route itself.
The little difference between routes depends upon to the part of the route that stay out of the map edge (that probably doesn't contribute to the tile count) and upon the number of curves the route has (depending on the shape a turn might occupy the same number of tiles but require more time to be traveled).
And yes the number of TPs obviously influence the attractiveness of the route (among other factors). That is mostly because the cost of stagecoach is spread over more units and also because in the long run more TPs mean a bigger total profit.
And yes map control is good in this game, dunno if 3 TPs is the magic number tho. I don't see any math confirming that. Especially early on, paying 200w for an extra TP that is giving something like 60 res per passage is quite an investment.
On top of this, the more the TPs the easier for the opponent to steal some and benefit from the stagecoach for free.
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by _venox_ »

I can only guess but I think Lordraphael indicated that a civ has a big advantage if it can build tps and still have good map control with units. 3 tps + stagecoach is 1000 resources for 12 villagers worth of income. Compared to Dutch's 650 res for a bank (=4 villagers worth of income)this means that as long as a civ has good map control, each tp they can build is essentially a bank for half it's cost. :/
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

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Post by Garja »

It's not that simple tho.
First of all, TPs must be upgraded, which not only takes resources but also time. Banks start working from the exact moment they're up. Related to this there is the fact that TPs work in bounties while banks give a trickle, the latter being obviously better. In this regard the shorter the route the better.

Second, each TP is worth 4 vills only if it is set on wood. Normally this is viable and good, but sometimes having more wood is just useless, so TPs are actually worth less (3v for gold, 2v for food). Gold on the other hand is pretty much always needed for Dutch and it is always worth 4.6 normal villagers.

Third, TPs are just way more vulnerable than banks. Yes, with map control they are a relatively safe investment but if the route is spread all over the map it becomes hard to take or keep every TP even against passive civs. Banks on the other hand almost never get sieged down, and when it's the case it means that Dutch is losing the game anyway (can happen to lose 1 bank sometimes and still win the game of course).

So in conclusion, yes TPs generally are generally a more efficient mean of booming than most of other options, but that's because they can be contested, so their cost discounts the risk factor. All civs that give up map control early on have alternative means of booming that force the other civ to research stagecoach to be on par (and not the other way around).
In practical terms, whenever the opponent is going for stagecoach it is wise to steal atleast one TP, even just to make his investment more expensive early on.
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by zoom »

Although I appreciate your post, I don't think it allows for any conclusions on general inter-civilization balance, outside of given match-ups. Specifically, Trade Routes being efficient is no logical basis for the claim that the advantage it gives agressive civilizations is "too big" – let alone that this occurs at the exact number of three Trading Posts. Notably, in contradiction of this claim, the civilizations best suited (early on, at the very least) to dominating a Trade-Route are consistently ranked among the weakest.

What we can directly conclude from this, is that Trade Routes are efficient, and those featuring more Trading Posts even more so. It also supports the claim that civilizations (practically) capable of immediately constructing a Trading Post have at least one advantage over those incapable of it.
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by Rikikipu »

Hey, these are really really intersing stats. Thanks for sharing this to us, it brings nice information on maps.
However, I disagree with the causes of these differences. As Garja has stated, it comes from the way that we have built map, especially, i's depending on the time wasted to reset the travois at the begining of the route. And as I've said, this time is coming from the way we have built the map.
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by zoom »

Rikikipu wrote:Hey, these are really really intersing stats. Thanks for sharing this to us, it brings nice information on maps.
However, I disagree with the causes of these differences. As Garja has stated, it comes from the way that we have built map, especially, i's depending on the time wasted to reset the travois at the begining of the route. And as I've said, this time is coming from the way we have built the map.
Is this to say that the efficiency of a Trade Route does not increase with the number of Trading Posts on it?
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by Garja »

The efficiency does increases because the same investment for stagecoach is split among more TPs, giving more profit for same fixed cost. Each TP does have its variable cost tho, and this is why someone should make some break even math to understand what is the optimal number of TPs to build for a defined time span.
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:The efficiency does increases because the same investment for stagecoach is split among more TPs, giving more profit for same fixed cost. Each TP does have its variable cost tho, and this is why someone should make some break even math to understand what is the optimal number of TPs to build for a defined time span.
I'm confused. From the data in the OP, isn't it clear that the efficiency is increased regardless of TP cost. As far as I can tell, the OP does not consider TP cost and still displays a significant difference.
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by _venox_ »

Maybe we could observe top level games in matchups where one player can get good map control and see if they play out differently due to the tps, maybe give the tp players a big economy and thus a big advantage or as Garja suggested the tp players will have trouble defending the route and justifying his investment.
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by KINGofOsmane »

well if you know you wont be able to defend your tps you wont upgreat them if you are smart lol
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:I'm confused. From the data in the OP, isn't it clear that the efficiency is increased regardless of TP cost. As far as I can tell, the OP does not consider TP cost and still displays a significant difference.

I'm confused too because I don't understand what you mean with efficiency here.
Do you refer to the res/min ratio? Or do you mean the cost vs the payoff?
The res/min ratio refers to a single TP, so obviously it's independent to the number of TPs.

KINGofOsmane wrote:well if you know you wont be able to defend your tps you wont upgreat them if you are smart lol

What's the point of taking many TPs then? And more importantly, what's the balance problem then?
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by deleted_user0 »

_venox_ wrote:Maybe we could observe top level games in matchups where one player can get good map control and see if they play out differently due to the tps, maybe give the tp players a big economy and thus a big advantage or as Garja suggested the tp players will have trouble defending the route and justifying his investment.


it really depends on the mu and whether the other player is willing to take advantage of it.

take high plains for example, the route is really good, but the tp's are in the middle of the map and the out lying ones are quite far from where you would normally base. So this makes them vulnerable. +it's hard to get 5 tp's without your opponent being able to sneak in 1 or even 2 tps of their own.

so if you invest a 1000 wood to get all 5 tp's + another 200w 200f to get the upgrade, that's a huge investment early in the game. The payoff is also big ofcourse, tp boom is one of the fastest booms in the game, but it's a flat boom, it doesnt increase with upgrades, such as vills do. that 1400 res will take about 3 passes on each tp, which i think on HP will take around 3-4 minutes. So imagine you get all tp's + the stagecoach around 6, you will only have broken even on your investment around 10 min.

However, this is not counting the xp you get from building the tps, from passes on the tp's before you upgrade to stagecoach, and more importantly, if the xp you get from upgrading to stagecoach if you do it smartly. I timed it on high plains, when i was practicing for Kynesie, so that I would upgrade the route at exactly the right time, so that I would get xp for each tp because the cart hadn't passed them yet on that round.

So taking that into account, i'd say you also gain 1 card from it, making the break even point, atleast in practical terms, only around 1.5 pass, you invested 1400 res, but you also gain a card (worth about 700-600 res) so you only have to account for 700-600 res more.

But you need to be able to keep mapcontrol in order to keep the tp's, and you need to be able to defend them, also on the outskirts, against a few pikes or whatever trying to siege them down. This makes the tp's an asset, because they provide LOS + buy you some time, but they are very valuable and if you lose them too soon, you might be in some trouble. Specially if your opponent builds his own tp's after he killed yours.

Some civs, that can play with ATP or that are naturally fast on the map control, such as aztecs, will be hard to punish for greedy tp play. However, other civs, such as germany or france, will be quite easy to punish for such play usually, if you prepare for it in advance. That's also why I guess, those civs often get the full route a bit later, in early fortress for example, when they are much harder to punish and alot more mobile too.

However, on RE when I play iro, i usually play this greedy tp play. I ship 600w and often even 5v and sometimes even 4v in succession, and I grab as many tp's as I can + upgrade the route asap. This is really quite strong, but still it can be outboomed by such civs as japan or brits, or other strong boomy eco civs. However, the easiest way to punish this greedy play, is to just rush it. When I lose playing that greedy tp play, i usually lose to some cheesy rush. And this is RE iro we are talking about, if even they can be punished, then certainly any other EP civ can be punished for greedy tp play.

I remember that I played a france vs dutch vs lordimperialist in pk3 . The way I used to play that mu on nilla was that I would semi ff with tp's (so much for tp meta being a tad invention). send 700w first, 4v 600w. And age up around 8.30 or 9 min. The strat was mostly designed for GP, difference being that I had to take only 2 tp's there, instead of 4 on Saguenay. The investment I had to do on sag proved to be too great, and my strat wasnt optimised to accomodate that extra 400w. as a result i was a bit slow, my investment took too long to pay off. and he rolled over my tp's taking them out quite quickly. I lost the game due to that wrong play, and him taking advantage of that very well.

all in all, I think 5 routes would be ok, but you should never be able to take all tps on such a route. imo there should always be atleast 1 tp that you cannot take, and sometimes 2 that you cannot take, of which 1 is a bit exposed so your opponent cannot just profit easily from your investment. Sonora is a good example for a fair tp route. Great lakes is reasonably fair as well.
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by britishmusketeer »

Garja wrote:The res/min ratio refers to a single TP, so obviously it's independent to the number of TPs.

It doesn't. the res/min assumes all tps. the res/tp/min is for 1 tp.
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by Jaeger »

Garja wrote:The efficiency does increases because the same investment for stagecoach is split among more TPs, giving more profit for same fixed cost. Each TP does have its variable cost tho, and this is why someone should make some break even math to understand what is the optimal number of TPs to build for a defined time span.

Well those calculations wouldn't be that useful, because TP's will take some time to pay off and it's extremely difficult to quantify the use of spending that 200w on something else (for example if you don't spend 200w on a TP you could make 3 more musks in your batch and get 2 more kills because of that, your explorer may tank a bit in a fight, or get a treasure, etc. so as I said its very hard to quantify).

So I'll do a very rough calculation to establish an upper bound just for resources, not taking anything that I said above into account.

If we go by 1 stagecoach TP=4 vills on wood, that means 2w/s, so if a route is already upgraded, if you build a TP it will gather back 200w in about 1 minute and 40 seconds.

If you make 3 TP's and upgrade them to stagecoach yourself, you will spend 3 * 200 + 300 (300w for staegcoach) = 900w, and with 6w/s from 3 TP's, it will take about 150s = 2 minutes and 30 seconds to gather 900w. But again this is just an upper bound, you will get a lot of xp before the staegcoach upgrade finishes so maybe after 1 minute after stagecoach finishes the 3 TP's have already paid for themselves. But again it might cancel out with the disadvantage of not having as many units out on the map (though I guess if you get TP's and stagecoach as soon as you hit age 2 then not having units doesn't matter so much)
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by deleted_user0 »

btw, you guys know that there is already an excel file on the internet that has done the maths for tp breakeven points. it also did the gatherrate etc, for re maps ofc.

https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/published.d ... mode=embed

perhaps someone knows how to convert that into an excel file so it stays in the community?
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by Jaeger »

umeu wrote:btw, you guys know that there is already an excel file on the internet that has done the maths for tp breakeven points. it also did the gatherrate etc, for re maps ofc.

https://docs.zoho.com/sheet/published.d ... mode=embed

perhaps someone knows how to convert that into an excel file so it stays in the community?

I think @zoom has an excel version of this. At least for TP's I'm just not so sure that the break-even points calculated there are relevant. I doubt they found a way to quantify the cost of you building the TP, because there are SO many variables:

There is a chance that the enemy army finds and kills your half-built TP
There is a chance that you finish a TP right after the cart passes
There is a chance the explorer couldve been in a fight and taken
Your explorer could have taken a treasure
You could have gotten out 2 more units in your batch and killed 4 more enemy units
You could have scouted and aproaches his army from a better angle
etc
etc
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by zoom »

If that's Cyclohexane's TAD Quick-Reference-Guide, then yes, I do. I believe I posted it somewhere on ESOC months ago. I could make a thread with it I suppose.
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:
zoom wrote:I'm confused. From the data in the OP, isn't it clear that the efficiency is increased regardless of TP cost. As far as I can tell, the OP does not consider TP cost and still displays a significant difference.

I'm confused too because I don't understand what you mean with efficiency here.
Do you refer to the res/min ratio? Or do you mean the cost vs the payoff?
The res/min ratio refers to a single TP, so obviously it's independent to the number of TPs.
I do mean resources per minute, yes. My understanding is that it's maximum yield per Trade Route.

"High plains: 6153 res in 10 min. 96% 96%
615 res/min
123res/tp/min"
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by Jaeger »

zoom wrote:If that's Cyclohexane's TAD Quick-Reference-Guide, then yes, I do. I believe I posted it somewhere on ESOC months ago. I could make a thread with it I suppose.

You sent it to me a long time ago and I wanted to post it to ESOC but it was too big lol
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by momuuu »

Actually, looking at these numbers I feel like drawing any sensible conclusions is borderline impossible. I'll try to plot them, res/tp/min vs TPs on map and if someone knows TP length I could do res/tp/min vs length.
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by momuuu »

Image

I detect no real relation based on these data.
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Re: TPs Gather rates on ESOC maps

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

are these with fully upgraded TP lines? I thought 2 Tps equaled a factory. But this outline would take 4 TPs to surpass a factory. Great work though. U rock!

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