EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

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EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by forgrin »

Let's get things going on EP 3.0 Sioux now that everyone's had a few days to look at things. What are your preliminary thoughts? Any new builds to consider?

(1)
Some preliminary math/data collection I've done:

Tl;dr: gather rate isn't game changing, but hp bonus is when exploited properly.

6 teepees are 24% gather rate increase for 300w. Roughly works out to steel traps, except it's area dependent and works on other resources, but you collect mostly food at the beginning anyways so consider it a ST equivalent that you get off 700w.

With nomadic expansion, the limit doubles and they become cheaper (35w from 50w). This means your full teepee build will cost 420w if you wait for the card to come first; see "strat ideas" later.

The card that increases gather rate (aggressive policy?) Is actually rather meh for Sioux in my opinion. Nomadic expansion + crates + 5v + Atk card(?) Are just much more necessary, plus the additional 12% gather rate is nice, but not very effective unless you use your teepees in ways that don't utilise their far more useful combat bonuses.

The HP bonus is where things get exciting.

As far as I can tell from my test, the bonus is 12.8% hp per teepee (didn't check if off base or max hp). This is a 76.8% bonus for 6 teepees and a whopping 153.6% bonus for 12 (although your units are unlikely to be in the aura of all 12 teepees, so consider it more like ~100% bonus for 8 teepees on average). One way to think of this bonus is a 75% hp up for 300w (then extrapolate with nomadic expansion).
I haven't tested how strong the bonus Atk is yet from the card, but it seems decent too.

This bonus is so insane that it might change the way Sioux is played. Before, you didn't want to touch their infantry with a long stick; now, ranged infantry-based armies become incredibly strong as you can camp under your teepees with a nearly-unkillable army. The only problem is getting them to come to you... which leads to the following changes in playstyle.


(2) Build Order Changes
Before, it was all no-eco (semi)-ff with or without stagecoach into cav, cav, cav. Now, you start warhut(?!), but likely still semi.


Against slow builds (vs semi)

The key is aggressive warhut placement, almost as if you were to warhut rush them. You can reinforce it against a push out by shipping 4ar at any time. Look to make clubs vs stable or stagecoach, cetan vs musk timing, and don't be afraid to make nothing if they play really defensive; the warhut can be a bluff of sorts. Reinforce with teepees as soon as you can; don't wait for nomadic expansion to make your first 6 if you send 700w first, the saving is pretty minimal for 6.

You should ALWAYS wait for them to come to you; this is why you have to sit on their 3rd hunt/goldmine with the warhut. If you don't, you'll give them too much time, and if you leave the teepees, wakina will go back to being shit units. Keep in mind when you sit in the TPs you're essentially doubling your HP pool, so make it happen one way or another, even if it means sacking some units to bait them.

3v - nomadic expansion - 700w (can switch 2nd and 3rd) - 5v/700g - ageup. Once you age, look to make wakina + axe soldiers, shipping the 14 wakina + 20%hp merc card when you can (thanks to eaglemut for this idea) and shipping 5rr for anticav.


Against colonial play (where they will timing push)

I haven't extensively tested this (only one game), but it theoretically works similar to a Russ blockhouse contain, only with teepees instead of boyars and clubs for real anticav (lol rusk musks).

Get at least one TP in transition/before aging. If you get real shit treasures you can wait until 700w, but it's not ideal and you'd have to skip market to do it (market off 700w in both builds btw).
If you chop an additional 150w in transition, you can slam down your warhut and 6 teepees immediately off the 400w ageup.
Get a stable off either 700 or 600w, depending on their composition.
You don't have to send 4ar 3rd shipment, it's really dependent on what your opponent is up to. It does allow you to put pressure on a booming opponent, but versus an earlier timing push 600w is better (you can always pop 4ar from the warhut when they push).

3v - 700w - 4axe - 600w/5v - 5v/600w - nomadic expansion - etc.

You should be ready to slam down the additional teepees as soon as nomadic expansion comes in. This is essentially your "boyars+" card; if they're still in their base at this point, the additional bonus hp will make it completely impossible to break your FB, securing the win.


Anyways those are just some initial thoughts of mine after some testing, what do y'all think of the new Sioux?
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by tedere12 »

I believe you can build 2-3 teepees max behind your base and go more greedy with sioux. what that means is staying more in age 2 and shipping things like 700w/15 bisons. I think fewer teepees are better because more probably wont pay off by the time you spend your base resources. The aura doesnt capture all vills, same goes for units, and they cause pathing issues if you try to build them all close to your tc so that you get the best aura cover. Vills can't gather, you will lose free vills/units if enemy pushes because u cant garrison, u cant fight cause br take too much space ect. I believe than br get 322 hp with 3 teepees or sth close to that, which is a nice boost.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by fei123456 »

Your calculation is wrong.
Each teepee give 10% extra hp. But if you have 6 teepees, you have 110%Ă—110%Ă—110%Ă—110%Ă—110%Ă—110% extra hp!
The same to eco bonus. 5 teepees are enough.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by lemmings121 »

there are also some solid cav semi ffs now, with a few teepees in base from the start/transition
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

the teepee contain thing was already possible on re, nothing has changed on it, except that teepees have more hp now. reason nobody did it is because immobile armies aren't really great as an offensive tool in aoe. and any non TWC civ in the game can get a better eco on mills and plantations than sioux has on natural res. so really its not an option. in fact, if you sit on their 3rd hunt with 4 warhuts and 12 teepees, im just gonna bypass your 2k wood fortification and siege down your tc. teepees just seem good on paper, but in fact, aren't that useful.

there is one thing important to know. There is no cap to 5 teepees, so indeed 6 teepees is 24%, but actually its more, because they stack on each other. so its not baserate x (6x0.4) but baserate x 0.4x0.4x0.4x0.4x0.4x0.4. However, the radius is too small to realistically fit all res you will be gathering. even if you send bison to your base, they will usually wander some way and not really be in range.

the hp boost and eco boost are nice to defend early agression, but thats it. its not op at all imo. the buff is really as elegant as i hoped it would be, and i don't think sioux is much changed at all. they are only a little bit buffed in areas they were weak at, that is vs early agression and late game eco. They were already nerfed in the area they were good at, that is BR-raiding and BR-combat, mostly an aspect of the midgame, where they still dominate, just not as much as before.

sioux is in a good spot atm imo.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by Darwin_ »

From my games, stagecoach is still superior to all-in teepee booming, but instead of building a market off of 400w along with a corral, I now build 4 teepee's. Because the teepee's effect all resources, they are more efficient than a market it seems. Cav semi-ff's are still the best option, be they bow rider or axe rider, but I have also been doing some straight-ff type builds with decent eco that get up very quickly. Honestly, the addition of 5v is probably more of an impact than the teepee's. The teepee's are nice and stiff, but I have really only seen them to function as a slightly more efficient alternative to building an early market. Of course teepee-related shipments have been given an indirect buff because players are now simply just building them in the first place, as well as the fact that infantry can build them. However, they still do not effect villager HP, so their defensive capabilities are only so good.

I think that their effect is much more consequential in the late game, due to the fact that Sioux only has one mill card, and no plantation card. Teepee's fill in that gap, and with the change to Aggressive Policy, they now have the full effect of refigeration and royal mint by just building around 4 teepees without the card, and have effectively all mill cards and plantation cards if they send aggressive policy as well as territorial expansion.

Also, I play sioux a fair bit, and I would never recommend sending 700w in early colonial unless you are making club/cetan or have done something other than 400w to colonial. You can even do stagecoach without it. I have been able to get 3 tp's in transition with chopping, then you get stagecoach off of 400w+corral. Chop for teepees if you want them right away, or just switch your tp's to wood.

Also, I have tried a few times to do a straight ff with a lot of eco on non-tp maps. To be clear, any form of stagecoach build is probably superior to this. I have done 500f age up and 700c first (you can do 400w or fast age up and be up around the same time, 400w means that you'll have most of the wood for upgrades in fortress, and fast age allows you to do a 16 or even 17 villager age up and get up around the same time.) Age up with bison politician to fortress, then send 700w. Build a bunch of teepee's as well as a market and a corral, also a warhut if you did 400w, chop for that warhut as well as elite axe rider or bow rider. You'll age up pretty fast with tons of food by your tc and set yourself up for crazy massing in early fortress, and with the teepee's you will be able to fend of early pressure in fortress.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by __Uhlan__ »

Darwin_ wrote:From my games, stagecoach is still superior to all-in teepee booming, but instead of building a market off of 400w along with a corral, I now build 4 teepee's. Because the teepee's effect all resources, they are more efficient than a market it seems. Cav semi-ff's are still the best option, be they bow rider or axe rider, but I have also been doing some straight-ff type builds with decent eco that get up very quickly. Honestly, the addition of 5v is probably more of an impact than the teepee's. The teepee's are nice and stiff, but I have really only seen them to function as a slightly more efficient alternative to building an early market. Of course teepee-related shipments have been given an indirect buff because players are now simply just building them in the first place, as well as the fact that infantry can build them. However, they still do not effect villager HP, so their defensive capabilities are only so good.

I think that their effect is much more consequential in the late game, due to the fact that Sioux only has one mill card, and no plantation card. Teepee's fill in that gap, and with the change to Aggressive Policy, they now have the full effect of refigeration and royal mint by just building around 4 teepees without the card, and have effectively all mill cards and plantation cards if they send aggressive policy as well as territorial expansion.


If your in the late game with Sioux past 30mins or so and haven't done significant damage to your opponents eco you already have lost regardless of 12 teepees or not.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by Darwin_ »

__Uhlan__ wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:From my games, stagecoach is still superior to all-in teepee booming, but instead of building a market off of 400w along with a corral, I now build 4 teepee's. Because the teepee's effect all resources, they are more efficient than a market it seems. Cav semi-ff's are still the best option, be they bow rider or axe rider, but I have also been doing some straight-ff type builds with decent eco that get up very quickly. Honestly, the addition of 5v is probably more of an impact than the teepee's. The teepee's are nice and stiff, but I have really only seen them to function as a slightly more efficient alternative to building an early market. Of course teepee-related shipments have been given an indirect buff because players are now simply just building them in the first place, as well as the fact that infantry can build them. However, they still do not effect villager HP, so their defensive capabilities are only so good.

I think that their effect is much more consequential in the late game, due to the fact that Sioux only has one mill card, and no plantation card. Teepee's fill in that gap, and with the change to Aggressive Policy, they now have the full effect of refigeration and royal mint by just building around 4 teepees without the card, and have effectively all mill cards and plantation cards if they send aggressive policy as well as territorial expansion.


If you in the late game with Sioux past 30mins or so and haven't done significant damage to your opponents eco you already have lost regardless of tp's or not.

Mostly talking about Team games here. And with the teepee's, sioux's eco is actually pretty decent and their units are also very good (if given a few minutes, sioux can boom to 99 vills with firepit and two tc's). The only thing sioux is lacking is artillery, with isnt that big of a deal with rifle riders/warchief big button. They also have attack dance and great unit upgrades (three cav combat cards+mustangs+teepee's). RE sioux definetly sucks lategame, but I think the new sioux has a lot more potential because they have a decent transition to farms/plantations.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by __Uhlan__ »

Darwin_ wrote:
__Uhlan__ wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:From my games, stagecoach is still superior to all-in teepee booming, but instead of building a market off of 400w along with a corral, I now build 4 teepee's. Because the teepee's effect all resources, they are more efficient than a market it seems. Cav semi-ff's are still the best option, be they bow rider or axe rider, but I have also been doing some straight-ff type builds with decent eco that get up very quickly. Honestly, the addition of 5v is probably more of an impact than the teepee's. The teepee's are nice and stiff, but I have really only seen them to function as a slightly more efficient alternative to building an early market. Of course teepee-related shipments have been given an indirect buff because players are now simply just building them in the first place, as well as the fact that infantry can build them. However, they still do not effect villager HP, so their defensive capabilities are only so good.

I think that their effect is much more consequential in the late game, due to the fact that Sioux only has one mill card, and no plantation card. Teepee's fill in that gap, and with the change to Aggressive Policy, they now have the full effect of refigeration and royal mint by just building around 4 teepees without the card, and have effectively all mill cards and plantation cards if they send aggressive policy as well as territorial expansion.


If you in the late game with Sioux past 30mins or so and haven't done significant damage to your opponents eco you already have lost regardless of tp's or not.

Mostly talking about Team games here. And with the teepee's, sioux's eco is actually pretty decent and their units are also very good (if given a few minutes, sioux can boom to 99 vills with firepit and two tc's). The only thing sioux is lacking is artillery, with isnt that big of a deal with rifle riders/warchief big button. They also have attack dance and great unit upgrades (three cav combat cards+mustangs+teepee's). RE sioux definetly sucks lategame, but I think the new sioux has a lot more potential because they have a decent transition to farms/plantations.


They don't have factories so no mater which way you twist it there atleast down 20vills, wakina & br are ok but there not insane units late game and neither are rifle riders when you have 30 skrims protecting 5 flacs. and if they have 20 vills on war dance there down another 20 vills from gathering so there atleast always down 20-40 vills once factories are out. Also sending the more teepee card is a pretty big investment to have a decent eco considering all your farms and plantations won't be affected by all 12 and instead maybe 2-5 at max. So yea they are better late game but you certainly want to win by 20mins with Sioux or do a lot of damage atleast.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by yemshi »

It buffs early game and late game. Perfect change.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by purplesquid »

Would it be possible to have the radius of the teepee gather rate increase with each age up? That way when sioux gets say age 4 they would be able to get the majority of their farms/plantations within the radius of all the teepee to get some sort of decent late game eco if done well.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by EAGLEMUT »

__Uhlan__ wrote: They don't have factories so no mater which way you twist it there atleast down 20vills, wakina & br are ok but there not insane units late game and neither are rifle riders when you have 30 skrims protecting 5 flacs. and if they have 20 vills on war dance there down another 20 vills from gathering so there atleast always down 20-40 vills once factories are out. Also sending the more teepee card is a pretty big investment to have a decent eco considering all your farms and plantations won't be affected by all 12 and instead maybe 2-5 at max. So yea they are better late game but you certainly want to win by 20mins with Sioux or do a lot of damage atleast.

I think you're underestimating the range a bit, it's not that bad. Check the attached pic with 80 gatherers, I'd say some of these farmers are even affected by all 12 teepees, giving them double gather rate. Let's assume that it's overall a 50% increase, well here's your 40 vills back, right there.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by EAGLEMUT »

purplesquid wrote:Would it be possible to have the radius of the teepee gather rate increase with each age up? That way when sioux gets say age 4 they would be able to get the majority of their farms/plantations within the radius of all the teepee to get some sort of decent late game eco if done well.

This is possible, but I'm not convinced it's actually needed.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by Garja »

You can squeeze atleast 4 teepees in base before tp or market in most cases. With 100w start you can build up to 6 in transition.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

theres imo no point to get 4 teepees in many mus. you could get another TP and stagecoach it and have way bigger eco boost. which you can then use later to still get teepees, although most likely by that point theyre obsolete.

i would love to see someone do the math on how long it takes for the investment to break even, and how long it takes to get significantly ahead, specially considering that another person might have spent that res in a thing that pays off faster.

in about 4 sioux mirror games now, the guy who built no teepees came ahead against the guy who did build many of them fast. its not enough to draw a definite conclusion, but it does show some indication that the hysterical cries of omg teepees op may have been a bit premature.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by Garja »

Ye someone should do the math but from my testing I can tell you it breaks even roughly when the first card arrives and then it is just positive income.
In fact you can do the same exact builds as before but with a number of teepees squeezed in between.
On a map with decent resources in base (most if EP maps basically) it is just great.
You cant really compare teepees with other investments because the latter dont self repay instantly while teepees with 15v on wood do.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by pecelot »

If the HP is the main strength of teepees, then why do you complain about the changes? No one really did any teepee builds on RE, so I don't think we could draw conclusions so easily. My first impression was similar: „wow, they're really good now!", whereas in reality I'm not entirely familiarised with their state on RE — and I honestly doubt you are, either.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by forgrin »

umeu wrote:
i would love to see someone do the math on how long it takes for the investment to break even, and how long it takes to get significantly ahead, specially considering that another person might have spent that res in a thing that pays off faster.
I've thought about doing this, but the math is so complicated and difficult to test (with no way to tell if vills are affected by all/how many auras etc) that it's probably not worth the pain of doing. I drew the parallel of 6teepee roughly = ST, which is probably accurate enough early game. 12 teepees (in one place) are kinda irrelevant for eco, as there's pretty much no way to get vills affected by more than 8 or so in a consistent manner.

in about 4 sioux mirror games now, the guy who built no teepees came ahead against the guy who did build many of them fast. its not enough to draw a definite conclusion, but it does show some indication that the hysterical cries of omg teepees op may have been a bit premature.
To be fair though, almost every mirror MU in the game can play out differently than the cross-civ matchups (see Brit mirror, German mirror colonial, etc). It might actually be more difficult to draw useful conclusions from a mirror than a spread of MUs.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

i think teepees have their place in 2 sort of mu's, namely mu's where you need to defend fast early aggression (like vs otto or india 10/10) or mu's where your opponent turtles, and you are going to want to age up with the bison politician and boom. In most other mu's you just want to get to fortress asap and control the map with the mobility of your army, not turtle in your base. Making teepees is just going to slow you down, that is, if you gather for them (and thus also get the market) and not just substitute them for the market.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by gibson »

Build tps, build bow rider, free pr= eplogic?
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by fei123456 »

umeu wrote:i think teepees have their place in 2 sort of mu's, namely mu's where you need to defend fast early aggression (like vs otto or india 10/10) or mu's where your opponent turtles, and you are going to want to age up with the bison politician and boom. In most other mu's you just want to get to fortress asap and control the map with the mobility of your army, not turtle in your base. Making teepees is just going to slow you down, that is, if you gather for them (and thus also get the market) and not just substitute them for the market.

200w for steel trap and amalgamation is ofc worth it. It boosts your game, instead of slow it down. Just way too op.
Edit: 4 teepees is 17% eco boost, roughly steel trap+amalgamation. 5 teepees>20% eco boost.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by fei123456 »

You can just chop 200w at the start of the game, and with the eco boost you can still reach age 2 before 4:40.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by tedere12 »

thats not possible lol.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by deleted_user0 »

Couprider wrote:
umeu wrote:i think teepees have their place in 2 sort of mu's, namely mu's where you need to defend fast early aggression (like vs otto or india 10/10) or mu's where your opponent turtles, and you are going to want to age up with the bison politician and boom. In most other mu's you just want to get to fortress asap and control the map with the mobility of your army, not turtle in your base. Making teepees is just going to slow you down, that is, if you gather for them (and thus also get the market) and not just substitute them for the market.

200w for steel trap and amalgamation is ofc worth it. It boosts your game, instead of slow it down. Just way too op.
Edit: 4 teepees is 17% eco boost, roughly steel trap+amalgamation. 5 teepees>20% eco boost.


it's not always worth it, and its not comparable to steel traps and amalgamation simply because res runs out really quickly. Amalgamation is already a questionable upgrade for exactly that reason, but atleast you have access to all mines on the map, not just within a small radius. This + the fact that you have to consider the price of the loss of tempo, which is a huge factor for sioux. There is a big difference in how a game plays out when you are in fortress at 6.30 compared to at 8 minutes, even if you reach it with a better eco. Obviously its mu dependent, and im not saying teepees are useless, just saying people are drawing conclusions about them being op way too quickly.
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Re: EP 3.0 Sioux Discussion

Post by Atomiswave »

What do you guys think, which card is more viable in most mu's, nomadic expansion or aggressive policy? I have them both in my current deck but i doubt i will ever send them both.....

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