Dutch Discussion Thread

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Italy Garja
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:– Bank cost increased from 300f, 350w to 350f, 350w (bounties recalculated accordingly).
– "Tulip Speculation" home-city shipment Bank coin-trickle effect increased from 15% to 25%.


That plus:
- bank building limit from 5 to 4;
- +10% gathering boost on some bank related card, either age1 bank cards (5+5) or the one to have cheaper banks.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Not sure if it is possible to make Dutch East India Company viable without drastically altering it.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

princeofcarthage wrote:
zoom wrote:Either that, or it's just too strong since Dutch can invest a greater portion of their spendings in economic investment, since Banks are so expensive.

I fail to understand what you mean by that I mean weather it's sarcastic or idk, but I think building bank is something similar to what british does with manors you invest a lot and get economic benefits later, 5 manors or 1 bank idk how that makes a difference, besides bank is much safer to raids and can act has defensive to tank damage
I mean that Dutch spends a greater portion of its resources on economy than the average civilization, since Banks cost 700 resources each, resulting in additional XP by comparison.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user »

I agree with zoi's proposals.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Keep cheaper banks nerf xp, shipment per bank is too retarded
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Buffing tulip speculation to 20/25% also a good idea for their sub par lategame
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user »

I also agree with Hazza's proposals.

Don't buff tulip too much, they need to be restricted late game somehow having 150 available mili pop.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Do you guys realize that bank XP is simply in line with every other economic building in the game? It is 20% of the building cost. Bank XP was an overeaction nerf in TWC era because Dutch was way too strong.
Manors provide the same amount of XP of banks and with VC card they still do it but at a much cheaper price. Same thing for shrines.
20 manors = 2700 resources, 4 banks = 2800 resources. If anything it is the 5th bank that gives too much xp.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:Do you guys realize that bank XP is simply in line with every other economic building in the game? It is 20% of the building cost. Bank XP was an overeaction nerf in TWC era because Dutch was way too strong.
Manors provide the same amount of XP of banks and with VC card they still do it but at a much cheaper price. Same thing for shrines.
20 manors = 2700 resources, 4 banks = 2800 resources. If anything it is the 5th bank that gives too much xp.
It's probably a good idea to push Dutch if it builds five banks in early Colonial...
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

They're not building 5 then. They hold with 2-3-4. 5th bank is more a of latent booming potential that makes Dutch over the top.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

just 5 bank before 6mins and cm, even if they ignore cm, can afford to use a card on that with their extra xp
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

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Post by Mitoe »

Dutch don't really have extra XP though, all civs generate roughly equivalent XP from constructing buildings and training units like Garja already pointed out. The difference, maybe, is that most civs are sending villagers (which you don't receive XP for), while Dutch is sending crates/bank wagon, which does convert into XP once spent.

Personally I would like to see the bank limit reverted back to 4, and they're probably totally fine with that change alone.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Mitoe wrote:Dutch don't really have extra XP though, all civs generate roughly equivalent XP from constructing buildings and training units like Garja already pointed out. The difference, maybe, is that most civs are sending villagers (which you don't receive XP for), while Dutch is sending crates/bank wagon, which does convert into XP once spent.

Personally I would like to see the bank limit reverted back to 4, and they're probably totally fine with that change alone.

If you can get the 5th bank its over the top basically.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by macacoalbino »

Tbh I always felt RE dutch would be fine with just buffing the xp of banks. No need for cost reduction or any other shenannigans. Maybe a buff in the ultra late game would be fine too, but not all that relevant in 1v1
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

macacoalbino wrote:Tbh I always felt RE dutch would be fine with just buffing the xp of banks. No need for cost reduction or any other shenannigans. Maybe a buff in the ultra late game would be fine too, but not all that relevant in 1v1

Well yeah, I liked the 300w 350f banks a bit but its probably not necessary atm. The 5th bank is a bit silly imo, or just over the top.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

Honestly I think all dutch needs is like 100-140 xp banks, 5 huss and 8 ruyter shipments, and maybe like an extra crate of some sort.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

Just remove 5th bank and Dutch is ok....
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

So, what about restoring the bank limit back to 4 and changing 4v to 5v. So even if we assume that there is a reason to give Dutch more eco after the 4th bank, at least in this way you have to actually make a choice of spending a card for it.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by forgrin »

I dunno if Dutch would send 5v early enough for it to matter since they generally don't get as many market ups early on.

Could change bank wagon card a bit. Starting bank limit set to 4, bank wagon gives +1 limit but now costs 200w or something. This would slow down the initial bank boom a bit but still give them strong eco in fortress which is I think where people want this civ to be balance-wise.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

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Post by Hazza54321 »

keep the banks cheaper, reduce the xp, 4 bank, 5 huss, 8 ruy
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:So, what about restoring the bank limit back to 4 and changing 4v to 5v. So even if we assume that there is a reason to give Dutch more eco after the 4th bank, at least in this way you have to actually make a choice of spending a card for it.

I think the civ is fine now.
Anyway, I think 5v instead of 4 and a 4 banks limit would be a buff, and go against the civ design: few vills but banks instead.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

The civ is far from fine, that's for sure.
5v and 4 banks would most likely be a nerf not a buff. 1 bank > 5v for practical purposes or at least the 2 things have pros and cons. 5v require a card, 5th bank does not. Bank adds infinite gold, preserve mines and it is virtually unkillable for the whole game. Vills are subject to idle time, they can be killed and also deplete resources instead of preserving them.
In any case I don't care about this comparison, that's not the point.
As for the civ design, yes Dutch isn't really a vill card civ. I'm just suggesting this change because it seems like "someone" thinks Dutch need an eco buff. I don't mind just reverting bank base limit which is the key point to restore Dutch and cut the retardness of the current civ.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Dutch doesn't need an eco buff lol.
And the 5th bank costs you 700 resources for less than 5v, so most of the time in 1v1 it's just better to play on 4banks because you need wood for market/houses/rax/stable and sometimes even 1TP
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Hazza54321 wrote:keep the banks cheaper, reduce the xp, 4 bank, 5 huss, 8 ruy

It turns out 4->5 hussars is a bad change in practise: EP decks will contain a 5 hussar card that wont show up on RE, and on EP the 4 hussar card doesnt show up at all but you cant remove either of those. Its just kinda ugly. I must say that a 5 huss shipment would be really nice but overall it was impossible to implement smoothly. I tested this and quickly became convinced that it was too bothersome.

Id say 5->4 banks is a good start. Dutch is very counterable imo and I think most civs have very decent chances against them.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

4 lancers to 5 was no problem at all, and theres about 3 civs that have a chance vs dutch

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