Dutch Discussion Thread

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Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by occult11 »

hazza54321 wrote:people seem to miss that you can increase your economy very fast as dutch, considering it takes 25secs to train a vill, you can just build 4 vills really quickly one after the other, plus you are training vills too
The same can be said of Brits, can''t it? But that''s not a problem, just one of the perks of playing a boom civ.
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Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

occult11 wrote:
hazza54321 wrote:people seem to miss that you can increase your economy very fast as dutch, considering it takes 25secs to train a vill, you can just build 4 vills really quickly one after the other, plus you are training vills too
The same can be said of Brits, cant it? But thats not a problem, just one of the perks of playing a boom civ.
yes but brit is an op team civ, and a top tier 1v1 civ
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Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by occult11 »

hazza54321 wrote:
occult11 wrote:The same can be said of Brits, cant it? But thats not a problem, just one of the perks of playing a boom civ.
yes but brit is an op team civ, and a top tier 1v1 civ
Discussing team balance seems futile to me, given how hard it already is just to balance the civs for 1v1. Dutchs boom is weaker and more expensive than that of the Brits, so I guess Im kind of confused why youd worry about the Dutch boom rate before the British one has been resolved (if that even is an issue that needs resolving, which I do not think it is).
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Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

occult11 wrote:
hazza54321 wrote:yes but brit is an op team civ, and a top tier 1v1 civ
Discussing team balance seems futile to me, given how hard it already is just to balance the civs for 1v1. Dutchs boom is weaker and more expensive than that of the Brits, so I guess Im kind of confused why youd worry about the Dutch boom rate before the British one has been resolved (if that even is an issue that needs resolving, which I do not think it is).
brits have 20 manors, dutch have 6 banks and 20% bank cards in age 1
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Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by occult11 »

hazza54321 wrote:
occult11 wrote:Discussing team balance seems futile to me, given how hard it already is just to balance the civs for 1v1. Dutchs boom is weaker and more expensive than that of the Brits, so I guess Im kind of confused why youd worry about the Dutch boom rate before the British one has been resolved (if that even is an issue that needs resolving, which I do not think it is).
brits have 20 manors, dutch have 6 banks and 20% bank cards in age 1
So 20 vills vs. 6banks*4vills/bank=24 vills. Thats a pretty small gap, and those Dutch "bank-vills" are much more expensive and dont come with free population space either. As I showed in a previous post, the bank cards are not that impressive, and certainly worse than a British 8 vill fortress shipment.
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Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by noissance »

Make cheap bank card cut cost in 1/2
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Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

occult11 wrote:
jerom wrote:having bank wagon, bank of rotterdam and bank of amsterdam is really nice for teamgames.

Regardless, if you had actually taken the time to study the replies in this thread, you could see that the consensus is that they havent been buffed that much for 1v1 and are still one of the weaker civs. The consensus is also that they are amazing in team.

This makes you wonder if the wrong things were buffed.
You may be surprised to learn that discussion of Dutch balance on the EP has occurred outside of this thread, and even forum, Mr. Top Postcount! Nevertheless, a consensus is not a unanimous opinion and my post was directed at those opposed to the "consensus." The statement "Regardless, if you had actually taken the time to study the replies in this thread..." then comes off as unnecessary and aggressive. Good day sir!
If there are people complaining about the 6 banks in 1v1 then you might be right. Id strongly doubt there are, and I bet the people you apperantly discussed with complain about the 6 bank limit in team, in which case they are very much so right.
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Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

noissance wrote:Make cheap bank card cut cost in 1/2

No please don''t. Dutch would become pretty amazing with that tbh
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Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by occult11 »

If there are people complaining about the 6 banks in 1v1 then you might be right. I'd strongly doubt there are, and I bet the people you apperantly discussed with....
@jerom Do you really think I made up an opposing argument just so that I could argue against it in this thread?
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Post by gibson »

occult11 wrote:
If there are people complaining about the 6 banks in 1v1 then you might be right. I''d strongly doubt there are, and I bet the people you apperantly discussed with....
@jerom ?Do you really think I made up an opposing argument just so that I could argue against it in this thread?

That''s a genius idea
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Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by _DB_ »

I've no idea either that how Dutch can be nerfed for team. Dutch is now top civ in team, almost as good as Japan now.

I still have to say that Dutch need no nerf. In team if Japan can't be nerfed, Dutch shouldn't be nerfed either. Dutch is now choice civ in team, something that can keep up with Japan, or you just don't beat Japan and Sioux in team.
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Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Mimsy for President »

subzero wrote:I''ve no idea either that how Dutch can be nerfed for team. Dutch is now top civ in team, almost as good as Japan now.

I still have to say that Dutch need no nerf. In team if Japan can''t be nerfed, Dutch shouldn''t be nerfed either. Dutch is now choice civ in team, something that can keep up with Japan, or you just don''t beat Japan and Sioux in team.
I agree. Nerf India.
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Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

The more I think about it, the less I think the buff did what it should have done. They get 120-160xp extra per match up, throughout the colonial age. That barely even matters, its like getting a good treasure but worse.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Jaeger »

Jerom wrote:The more I think about it, the less I think the buff did what it should have done. They get 120-160xp extra per match up, throughout the colonial age. That barely even matters, its like getting a good treasure but worse.


Getting the 700w after the bank wagon earlier really helps a lot vs colonial civs, and the ability to build more banks and send cards vs fortress civs like china is also really good.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

I have a dream that one day you stop making bad patches.
I have a dream that one day you nerf Dutch op banks and buff Russia.
I have a dream that one day Garja is not in your balance team.
I have a dream today!
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by iNcog »

I don't think Dutch is OP personally.

Would take like 10+ replays of Dutch easily beating all the other civs hands down to start making that seem true.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by noissance »

Make infantry more expensive for dutch, but give more speed to them (+10% spped, 20% more costly), remove 9 ryuter shipment and make ryuter train slower.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

occult11 wrote:I don't understand why people are getting so upset now that dutch has +2 banks. Its boom is still very expensive and the bonus xp doesn't do very much to make their early game better. And of course the Dutch should become strong as the game progresses... it's a boom civ after all. Nobody has a problem with Japan becoming completely faceroll beyond 14 mins but somehow +2 bank cap and suddenly it's being suggested that Dutch needs a nerf. The 2 bank cards aren't even that good when you stop to think about it. At 6 banks (which you would presumably have mid fortress) the 20% increase amounts to a 1.2 bank shipment which is like 1.2*4= 4.8 villager shipment, in age III. How is that possibly OP? Dutch is now quite strong in team games, but the patch wasn't balanced around that and a nerf to dutch just so that they are fair in teams is in my opinion really silly.

It's less so that they need a nerf and more so that they need rebalancing. Other than that I think yours is a good post. The changes made to the Dutch (like those made to the Portuguese) are strange in general and lazy in particular to me. Fortunately though balance seems more or less satisfactory.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

The bank limit just isnt quite the buff dutch needed in my opinion. It helps in a select group of match ups, but usually you'll not have the freedom to get so many banks.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

When the bank limit does help it is usually too much even.
I think Dutch only needed the real xp bounty for banks (140xp) and they would probably be totally fine.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

Jerom wrote:The bank limit just isnt quite the buff dutch needed in my opinion. It helps in a select group of match ups, but usually you'll not have the freedom to get so many banks.
That's how it was intended, to give Dutch more eco-heavy options when they need it. As it was, no one was ever building more than 4 banks in sup 1v1 and a 4 bank + 20 vill eco is average at best considering other civs are making better use of their market and TPs nowadays. That's not good since Dutch are a boom civ and their eco is pretty much all they have. Note it wasn't the only change.

The XP increase was the more relevant buff. It's possible Dutch are still too weak, in that case we'll have to tweak the XP numbers.
But I haven't seen enough reason to believe Dutch are weak. Seems to me the match ups they lose are either because of civ counters or the other civ being too strong.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

Jerom wrote:The bank limit just isnt quite the buff dutch needed in my opinion. It helps in a select group of match ups, but usually you'll not have the freedom to get so many banks.


It would be better to decrease banks cost a bit. More banks buff rarely comes in play, except in team matches.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by thebritish »

make banks cheaper, but lower their cost gain, and tweak the xp bounty to 20%
revert to 4 banks
age 1 cards for banks, make them 10% instead of 20%
and budd their age 4 card to +25% or +33% instead of +15%
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

On of the meh things about Dutch on RE is that their lategame eco is really meh. Like, banks slowly reduce to 1-2 vills at best because all the other vills get upgraded. The bank cards help with the scaling, but they're available and effective a little bit too early, which messes things up. I wouldn't be sad if the changes were tweaked a little bit: Make tullip speculation quite a bit stronger (30%?), make the bank cards weaker (10%?) and possibly consider upping the villager build limit to 60-70. Then revert the 6 banks build limit and you've fixed team I think.

Then to fix sup, increase the 4 hussar shipment to 5 hussars and 7 ruyters to 8 ruyters.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by thebritish »

Jerom wrote:On of the meh things about Dutch on RE is that their lategame eco is really meh. Like, banks slowly reduce to 1-2 vills at best because all the other vills get upgraded. The bank cards help with the scaling, but they're available and effective a little bit too early, which messes things up. I wouldn't be sad if the changes were tweaked a little bit: Make tullip speculation quite a bit stronger (30%?), make the bank cards weaker (10%?) and possibly consider upping the villager build limit to 60-70. Then revert the 6 banks build limit and you've fixed team I think.

Then to fix sup, increase the 4 hussar shipment to 5 hussars and 7 ruyters to 8 ruyters.

Didnt i said the same? Image
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