Dutch Discussion Thread

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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Jerom wrote:On of the meh things about Dutch on RE is that their lategame eco is really meh. Like, banks slowly reduce to 1-2 vills at best because all the other vills get upgraded. The bank cards help with the scaling, but they're available and effective a little bit too early, which messes things up. I wouldn't be sad if the changes were tweaked a little bit: Make tullip speculation quite a bit stronger (30%?), make the bank cards weaker (10%?) and possibly consider upping the villager build limit to 60-70. Then revert the 6 banks build limit and you've fixed team I think.

Then to fix sup, increase the 4 hussar shipment to 5 hussars and 7 ruyters to 8 ruyters.

i agree
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Gear_Head »

Jerom wrote:On of the meh things about Dutch on RE is that their lategame eco is really meh. Like, banks slowly reduce to 1-2 vills at best because all the other vills get upgraded. The bank cards help with the scaling, but they're available and effective a little bit too early, which messes things up. I wouldn't be sad if the changes were tweaked a little bit: Make tullip speculation quite a bit stronger (30%?), make the bank cards weaker (10%?) and possibly consider upping the villager build limit to 60-70. Then revert the 6 banks build limit and you've fixed team I think.

Then to fix sup, increase the 4 hussar shipment to 5 hussars and 7 ruyters to 8 ruyters.


This. The worst thing about dutch is late game eco, which is maybe worse than their early game sup matchups.

In addition to the 4 -> 5 hussars and 7 -> 8 ruyters shipments, I'd suggest keeping the bank XP changes that are currently in place. Change the bank build limit back and take some off the bank cards and we're good to go.

65 villager limit + buffed tulip speculation will go a long ways towards fixing late game imo. All good suggestions.

Edit: Sorry for the late bump. I didn't look at the last post date before I wrote this - got a bit too enthusiastic I guess. :oops:
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Jaeger »

Gear_Head wrote:
Jerom wrote:On of the meh things about Dutch on RE is that their lategame eco is really meh. Like, banks slowly reduce to 1-2 vills at best because all the other vills get upgraded. The bank cards help with the scaling, but they're available and effective a little bit too early, which messes things up. I wouldn't be sad if the changes were tweaked a little bit: Make tullip speculation quite a bit stronger (30%?), make the bank cards weaker (10%?) and possibly consider upping the villager build limit to 60-70. Then revert the 6 banks build limit and you've fixed team I think.

Then to fix sup, increase the 4 hussar shipment to 5 hussars and 7 ruyters to 8 ruyters.


This. The worst thing about dutch is late game eco, which is maybe worse than their early game sup matchups.

In addition to the 4 -> 5 hussars and 7 -> 8 ruyters shipments, I'd suggest keeping the bank XP changes that are currently in place. Change the bank build limit back and take some off the bank cards and we're good to go.

65 villager limit + buffed tulip speculation will go a long ways towards fixing late game imo. All good suggestions.

Edit: Sorry for the late bump. I didn't look at the last post date before I wrote this - got a bit too enthusiastic I guess. :oops:


I really like the 50 vill limit, I think it's just tulip speculation that needs to be buffed. It's an age 4 card that only gives 15% I think, so you need to already have like 7 banks to make it as good as the bank wagon card
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by britishmusketeer »

Jerom wrote:On of the meh things about Dutch on RE is that their lategame eco is really meh. Like, banks slowly reduce to 1-2 vills at best because all the other vills get upgraded. The bank cards help with the scaling, but they're available and effective a little bit too early, which messes things up. I wouldn't be sad if the changes were tweaked a little bit: Make tullip speculation quite a bit stronger (30%?), make the bank cards weaker (10%?) and possibly consider upping the villager build limit to 60-70. Then revert the 6 banks build limit and you've fixed team I think.

Then to fix sup, increase the 4 hussar shipment to 5 hussars and 7 ruyters to 8 ruyters.

Agree.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

I think that we really need to keep the dutch identity. Increased villager limit and nerfed bank limit make dutch more balanced, but makes them more like other civs

My ideas:
4 huss=5
7 ruyters=8
6 bank limit=5
tulip speculation=30%
Bank of rotterdam/Amsterdam=+1 bank limit. amsterdam is age 2 rotterdam is age 4
banks are affected by market mining upgrades
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Darwin_ wrote:I think that we really need to keep the dutch identity. Increased villager limit and nerfed bank limit make dutch more balanced, but makes them more like other civs

My ideas:
4 huss=5
7 ruyters=8
6 bank limit=5
tulip speculation=30%
Bank of rotterdam/Amsterdam=+1 bank limit. amsterdam is age 2 rotterdam is age 4
banks are affected by market mining upgrades

+1
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Gear_Head »

Darwin_ wrote:I think that we really need to keep the dutch identity. Increased villager limit and nerfed bank limit make dutch more balanced, but makes them more like other civs

My ideas:
4 huss=5
7 ruyters=8
6 bank limit=5
tulip speculation=30%
Bank of rotterdam/Amsterdam=+1 bank limit. amsterdam is age 2 rotterdam is age 4
banks are affected by market mining upgrades


Another good way to accomplish the same thing; I like this one too. :)
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by britishmusketeer »

Darwin_ wrote:banks are affected by market mining upgrades

This would be too good.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by iCourt »

I like Dutch being back to 4 banks.

Age 1- Bank cards +1 to bank limit and increase bank production by like 10-15%. Adjust rate accordingly with testing.

Age 2- Adjust church card so it doesn't decrease unit speed. It's already a penalty Dutch need to ship and research this tech to get a solid economy. It's an indirect boost to their economy as they can kite slightly better, thus losing less units.

Age 3- 5 hussar card. 8 Ruyter card. Keep in mind 4 hussars is a shared card, the 5 hussar card would need to be reduced to 4 hussars, otherwise some civs would have two 5 hussar cards.

Age 4- Bank card boosts like 30-50%. What ever balances out their economy to be fairly inline with other civs. Adjust accordingly.

Thus the meta doesn't change much.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

britishmusketeer wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:banks are affected by market mining upgrades

This would be too good.


Its 30% combined bonus for 450 combined res. That is 20% per 300 res. Exact same value as the EP rotterdam and Amsterdam cards.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Darwin_ wrote:I think that we really need to keep the dutch identity. Increased villager limit and nerfed bank limit make dutch more balanced, but makes them more like other civs

My ideas:
4 huss=5
7 ruyters=8
6 bank limit=5
tulip speculation=30%
Bank of rotterdam/Amsterdam=+1 bank limit. amsterdam is age 2 rotterdam is age 4
banks are affected by market mining upgrades

RE bank of rotterdam/amsterdam cards are not good enough. They are not ever worth a slot in your deck. A card like age 1 mill card is better imo. Letting banks scale with market upgrades would probably be OP.

The villager change isnt the best yes, but I think it is almost necessay: Dutch with a 6 bank build limit at start, and 20% bank cards is OP in team. Removing the 20% cards isnt going to do much imo. The problem really is the 6 bank limit, that allows dutch to boom a bit too much at the start. I actually think the +40% on banks im total made them scale nicely I guess. But thats still a lot of eco cards to get barely a european eco. Its actually a remarkably complex issue to fix dutch lategame without making them OP in team.

I think removing the 5th bank without compensation would be sad. Itd be a nerf to a civ that certainly doesnt deserve a nerf. Id like the 60 vill limit to possibly compensate for that. A TC doesnt boom as quickly as two banks, which is what makes them problematic, but it still allows them for at least a somewhat decent lategame eco. Maybe 65 would be better for that I guess. Also, it makes it so that making a second TC can actually be worth it in both team and 1v1, which is pretty nice to compensate for losing the 6th and (more importantly) 5th bank. Of course this is all speculation, itd require some testing to see how which suggestion works out.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by thebritish »

I think Dutch should get their banks reverted to 4 banks.
Bank of Roterdam and Amsterdam to give +1 bank limit and 10% gather rate.
Make banks cost 300 food and 300 wood (instead of 350 food and 350 wood). Nerf their gold gather rate to 2.5g/s instead of being 2.75g/s.
Make Tulip Speculation give 100% bank gather rate while increasing their cost by +50% or by +100%
Increase vill to 60.
This way Dutch can make more banks from start (being cheaper), and in later stage, they can keep up with the other civs eco by getting +100% gather rate for banks.
Also, the 2 cards which give +10% (20% total), will give the banks gather rate of +0.5g/s which will make them to gather 3g/s instead of 2.75g/s while being cheaper (this would require the 2 cards to be sent tho.)
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Darwin_ wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:banks are affected by market mining upgrades

This would be too good.


Its 30% combined bonus for 450 combined res. That is 20% per 300 res. Exact same value as the EP rotterdam and Amsterdam cards.

EP bank cards are worth ~4 vills, which is a decent age 4 shipment (~600 resources). Not to mention that placer mines is already worth it without affecting banks, and almagation is barely not worth it but also already does 20% on gold for vills. Dutch basically has 10 vills + 4 banks on coin. 10 dutch vills is 11.5 normal vills. A bank is 4.5 never stopping vills. 30% on 29.5 vills is basically 9 vills. 9 villagers for the cost of a bank is about twice as good as getting a bank, and is basically bank of amsterdam and bank of rotterdam combined (so two strong cards) for the cost of 550 resources (you made a calculation error somewhere). Thats cheaper than a bank lol. That is so broken its unreal.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

Jerom wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Its 30% combined bonus for 450 combined res. That is 20% per 300 res. Exact same value as the EP rotterdam and Amsterdam cards.

EP bank cards are worth ~4 vills, which is a decent age 4 shipment (~600 resources). Not to mention that placer mines is already worth it without affecting banks, and almagation is barely not worth it but also already does 20% on gold for vills. Dutch basically has 10 vills + 4 banks on coin. 10 dutch vills is 11.5 normal vills. A bank is 4.5 never stopping vills. 30% on 29.5 vills is basically 9 vills. 9 villagers for the cost of a bank is about twice as good as getting a bank, and is basically bank of amsterdam and bank of rotterdam combined (so two strong cards) for the cost of 550 resources (you made a calculation error somewhere). Thats cheaper than a bank lol. That is so broken its unreal.


Whoops. I though amalgamation was 100 wood 100 food not 200 each for some reason. :lol:
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

thebritish wrote:I think Dutch should get their banks reverted to 4 banks.
Bank of Roterdam and Amsterdam to give +1 bank limit and 10% gather rate.
Make banks cost 300 food and 300 wood (instead of 350 food and 350 wood). Nerf their gold gather rate to 2.5g/s instead of being 2.75g/s.
I've been thinking about this, and honestly, it makes tons of sense. If the end result is to make dutch better in the early game and the same mid-late game, than this is the best way to go.
Make Tulip Speculation give 100% bank gather rate while increasing their cost by +50% or by +100%
Ehhh. I don't really like this. No point in increasing their cost because you already have the infrastructure up by the time you get that card, so the malus from it is essentially mute. Better to just buff Tulip Speculation moderately, not a lot.
Increase vill to 60.
I think that it is better to deal with banks, and figure out a way for them to remain the biggest part of the dutch eco, than just buff their settlers. It preserves civ uniqueness, which is something that dutch really need to keep.
This way Dutch can make more banks from start (being cheaper), and in later stage, they can keep up with the other civs eco by getting +100% gather rate for banks.
Also, the 2 cards which give +10% (20% total), will give the banks gather rate of +0.5g/s which will make them to gather 3g/s instead of 2.75g/s while being cheaper (this would require the 2 cards to be sent tho.)
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

iCourt wrote:I like Dutch being back to 4 banks.

Age 1- Bank cards +1 to bank limit and increase bank production by like 10-15%. Adjust rate accordingly with testing.

Age 2- Adjust church card so it doesn't decrease unit speed. It's already a penalty Dutch need to ship and research this tech to get a solid economy. It's an indirect boost to their economy as they can kite slightly better, thus losing less units.

Age 3- 5 hussar card. 8 Ruyter card. Keep in mind 4 hussars is a shared card, the 5 hussar card would need to be reduced to 4 hussars, otherwise some civs would have two 5 hussar cards.

Age 4- Bank card boosts like 30-50%. What ever balances out their economy to be fairly inline with other civs. Adjust accordingly.

Thus the meta doesn't change much.

You would not want their late economy to be fairly in line with other civilizations'.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

You dont want their economy to be worth 60 vills however. It doesnt have to be a 100 vill eco, but at least like 75 vills. Maybe 80. Thatd still be pretty bad tbh.

I think removing the 5th bank is not justified in 1v1 tbh. Itd nerf them in a few match ups pretty severely, while I dont think thats fair at all.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by iNcog »

I think 6 is fine. You won't realistically get the 6th bank in supremacy but it's a good way to consolidate an advantage without going full retard and trying to end the game with units.

Boost Bank XP just a touch, give them a 5 hussar card, I'd even leave the bank cards as they are because they aren't that amazing (just 4v per card, afaik?).
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Jaeger »

What if we just buff pikes in general to have +10 hp or something, it would help dutch as well as spain. Anotehr cool thing would be to buff the dutch 8 pikemen shipment to 9 which would add more uniqueness
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by britishmusketeer »

ovi12 wrote:What if we just buff pikes in general to have +10 hp or something, it would help dutch as well as spain. Anotehr cool thing would be to buff the dutch 8 pikemen shipment to 9 which would add more uniqueness

This seems like a good change to me
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Jaeger »

britishmusketeer wrote:
ovi12 wrote:What if we just buff pikes in general to have +10 hp or something, it would help dutch as well as spain. Anotehr cool thing would be to buff the dutch 8 pikemen shipment to 9 which would add more uniqueness

This seems like a good change to me

The first or the second?
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by britishmusketeer »

ovi12 wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:
ovi12 wrote:What if we just buff pikes in general to have +10 hp or something, it would help dutch as well as spain. Anotehr cool thing would be to buff the dutch 8 pikemen shipment to 9 which would add more uniqueness

This seems like a good change to me

The first or the second?

first
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

iNcog wrote:I think 6 is fine. You won't realistically get the 6th bank in supremacy but it's a good way to consolidate an advantage without going full retard and trying to end the game with units.

Boost Bank XP just a touch, give them a 5 hussar card, I'd even leave the bank cards as they are because they aren't that amazing (just 4v per card, afaik?).

So you completely deny that Dutch is too strong in team? Because Ive heard many great team players, including tibia and veni, say they are.

I like the 9 pike idea. Thatd scew dutch towards my style a bit, which is the most interesting style of dutch imo.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

They are in team...
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by iCourt »

Dutch changes currently change the civ too much and make them even better in team games. Increasing bank build limit changes how Dutch play. Before you were forced to send a card to get more banks, sort of how Japan has to send cherry orchards.

Really the only changes I disagree with in this balance patch currently.

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