Dutch Discussion Thread

[anonymousv2]

Dutch are my favorite civilization, hands down, but whenever I play as them I am always a little annoyed that their colonial age potential is minimal, or yet to be discovered. They are really strong at the 9ish minute mark, but I wish they were a little bit more flexible. I think that they should get a 5 vill shipment, or maybe boost their infantry upgrade card both of which would make their colonial stronger. Maybe upgrades for banks that don't have to be sent as a card, like maybe placer mines and amalgamation also slightly boost banks.

[forgrin]

Dutch are my favorite civilization, hands down, but whenever I play as them I am always a little annoyed that their colonial age potential is minimal, or yet to be discovered. They are really strong at the 9ish minute mark, but I wish they were a little bit more flexible. I think that they should get a 5 vill shipment, or maybe boost their infantry upgrade card both of which would make their colonial stronger. Maybe upgrades for banks that don''t have to be sent as a card, like maybe placer mines and amalgamation also slightly boost banks.

Their colonial is decent, just their fortress is so much better. Main issue is lack of musks for late colonial. Your changes would make them soooo OP lol, they''d be amazing in every age. They''re perfect as they are in the EP. If you wanna do more colonial-focused builds, then watch some Aizamk stuff from old smackdowns.

[Mimsy for President]

4 hussars -> 5 hussars
7 ruyters -> 8 ruyters
Gracias muchachas.

[momuuu]

Dutch lategame in team is disgusting. Fully upgraded, you have 10 banks gathering at the rate of 4 vills each.is insane. I actually outgathered a Japan and British player in a game going late. The change is unnessesary.

Itd to 4 huss -> 5 huss and 7 ruyter -> 8 ruyter and then reconsider the bank changes.

[Mimsy for President]

Dutch lategame in team is disgusting. Fully upgraded, you have 10 banks gathering at the rate of 4 vills each.is insane. I actually outgathered a Japan and British player in a game going late. The change is unnessesary.

Itd to 4 huss ->' 5 huss and 7 ruyter ->' 8 ruyter and then reconsider the bank changes.

I hope the 6 bank limit will remain unchanged though. Perhaps nerfing age 1 cards like 10% instead of 20. If you have 6 banks, it means about -5vills with the nerf.
And Tulip Speculation should give a way much better rate so that Dutch gets an eco comparable to the other nilla civs. 35% seems perfect.

[momuuu]

Dutch lategame in team is disgusting. Fully upgraded, you have 10 banks gathering at the rate of 4 vills each.is insane. I actually outgathered a Japan and British player in a game going late. The change is unnessesary.

Itd to 4 huss -> 5 huss and 7 ruyter -> 8 ruyter and then reconsider the bank changes.

I hope the 6 bank limit will remain unchanged though. Perhaps nerfing age 1 cards like 10% instead of 20.?If you have 6 banks, it means about -5vills with the nerf.
And Tulip Speculation should give a way much better rate so that Dutch gets an eco comparable to the other nilla civs. 35% seems perfect.

they should have like, a 80 vill eco. I think its close to a 90 vill eco now though.

[gibson]

I hope the 6 bank limit will remain unchanged though. Perhaps nerfing age 1 cards like 10% instead of 20.?If you have 6 banks, it means about -5vills with the nerf.
And Tulip Speculation should give a way much better rate so that Dutch gets an eco comparable to the other nilla civs. 35% seems perfect.

they should have like, a 80 vill eco. I think its close to a 90 vill eco now though.

what would be wrong with Dutch having a max eco that is not way shittier than other civs max eco?

[Mr_Bramboy]

they should have like, a 80 vill eco. I think its close to a 90 vill eco now though.

what would be wrong with Dutch having a max eco that is not way shittier than other civs max eco?

150 military population maybe?

[gibson]

what would be wrong with Dutch having a max eco that is not way shittier than other civs max eco?

150 military population maybe?

not really relevant for sup tbh

[Mimsy for President]

I hope the 6 bank limit will remain unchanged though. Perhaps nerfing age 1 cards like 10% instead of 20. If you have 6 banks, it means about -5vills with the nerf.
And Tulip Speculation should give a way much better rate so that Dutch gets an eco comparable to the other nilla civs. 35% seems perfect.

they should have like, a 80 vill eco. I think its close to a 90 vill eco now though.

87 vills with 6 banks yes.
Almost 100 vills with 8 banks, which means Church card, Bank of Amsterdam, Bank of Rotterdam and Tulip Speculation. If that forces Dutch to go Industrial to have this eco, Im absolutely okay with it.

[momuuu]

they should have like, a 80 vill eco. I think its close to a 90 vill eco now though.

87 vills with 6 banks yes.
Almost 100 vills with 8 banks, which means Church card, Bank of Amsterdam, Bank of Rotterdam and Tulip Speculation. If that forces Dutch to go Industrial to have this eco, Im absolutely okay with it.

you have to take into account that market upgrades exist though. I guess if youre on fully upgraded natural resources (thats like only +30%) that banks at +65% are quite OP yeah.

[Mimsy for President]

87 vills with 6 banks yes.
Almost 100 vills with 8 banks, which means Church card, Bank of Amsterdam, Bank of Rotterdam and Tulip Speculation. If that forces Dutch to go Industrial to have this eco, Im absolutely okay with it.

you have to take into account that market upgrades exist though. I guess if youre on fully upgraded natural resources (thats like only +30%) that banks at +65% are quite OP yeah.

Actually its just a postulate. In my examples, I compare Dutch with the other Nilla civs and I consider neither Dutch nor they have market upgrades. There is no comparison with TAD and TWC civs yet
OR [font size="2"](and that would mean my whole life has been a lie)
do you mean Placer Mines and Amalgamation affects the banks production rate ?[/font]

[momuuu]

you have to take into account that market upgrades exist though. I guess if youre on fully upgraded natural resources (thats like only +30%) that banks at +65% are quite OP yeah.

Actually its just a postulate. In my examples, I compare Dutch with the other Nilla civs and I consider neither Dutch nor they have market upgrades. There is no comparison with TAD and TWC civs yet?:)
OR [font size="2"](and that would mean my whole life has been a lie)
do you mean Placer Mines and Amalgamation affects banks production rate ?[/font]

no I dont, but market upgrades are quite relevant because it shows a former, and to some extend current weakness of banks: they dont scale. So a priori, banks seem amazing, but once vills are upgraded a bit, an unupgraded bank is only worth like 2 vills.

Anyhow, I feel the Dutch buff has been rather inefficient so far in 1v1, as they are, in my opinion (also referring to my match up analysis) still one of the weaker civs. The bank xp buff is pretty minor to be honest, and the other buffs are mostly a nonfactor. They havent really been buffed in the areas they really needed a buff I think.

[Mimsy for President]

Actually its just a postulate. In my examples, I compare Dutch with the other Nilla civs and I consider neither Dutch nor they have market upgrades. There is no comparison with TAD and TWC civs yet
OR [font size="2"](and that would mean my whole life has been a lie)
do you mean Placer Mines and Amalgamation affects banks production rate ?[/font]

no I dont, but market upgrades are quite relevant because it shows a former, and to some extend current weakness of banks: they dont scale. So a priori, banks seem amazing, but once vills are upgraded a bit, an unupgraded bank is only worth like 2 vills.

Anyhow, I feel the Dutch buff has been rather inefficient so far in 1v1, as they are, in my opinion (also referring to my match up analysis) still one of the weaker civs. The bank xp buff is pretty minor to be honest, and the other buffs are mostly a nonfactor. They havent really been buffed in the areas they really needed a buff I think.

Oh I get you. Well my life has still been a lie because I didnt take this parameter into account lol.

And yeah Dutch is somewhat weak in early fortress. Personally I dont mind if its colonial is not so strong. But if you compare with China (which is meh in colonial as well) and its wide range of shipments, you realize how Dutch is sucky.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I agree, dutch is broken in team.
They can mass hard, have skirm in age2 and don t need to train anti cav which is already quite strong, and now they have the best boom in the game...

[Marco1698]

I agree, dutch is broken in team.
They can mass hard, have skirm in age2 and don t need to train anti cav which is already quite strong, and now they have the best boom in the game...

Is it possible to nerf them xD?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Idk.
I don t think that the 6 banks change is relevant in 1v1 but in team it is.

[Marco1698]

Idk.
I don t think that the 6 banks change is relevant in 1v1 but in team it is.

you can see how you don''t really need any mines with 6 banks. You can easily spam ruyters falconets and the score is really high. I think the eso patch team did well to buff Dutch, but this boost is too much I think

[lukas2223]

Dutch is AOK

[occult11]

I don't understand why people are getting so upset now that dutch has +2 banks. Its boom is still very expensive and the bonus xp doesn't do very much to make their early game better. And of course the Dutch should become strong as the game progresses... it's a boom civ after all. Nobody has a problem with Japan becoming completely faceroll beyond 14 mins but somehow +2 bank cap and suddenly it's being suggested that Dutch needs a nerf. The 2 bank cards aren't even that good when you stop to think about it. At 6 banks (which you would presumably have mid fortress) the 20% increase amounts to a 1.2 bank shipment which is like 1.2*4= 4.8 villager shipment, in age III. How is that possibly OP? Dutch is now quite strong in team games, but the patch wasn't balanced around that and a nerf to dutch just so that they are fair in teams is in my opinion really silly.

[Goodspeed]

I don''t understand why people are getting so upset now that dutch has +2 banks. Its boom is still very expensive and the bonus xp doesn''t do very much to make their early game better. And of course the Dutch should become strong as the game progresses... it''s a boom civ after all. Nobody has a problem with Japan becoming completely faceroll beyond 14 mins but somehow +2 bank cap and suddenly it''s being suggested that Dutch needs a nerf. The 2 bank cards aren''t even that good when you stop to think about it. At 6 banks (which you would presumably have mid fortress) the 20% increase amounts to a 1.2 bank shipment which is like 1.2*4= 4.8 villager shipment, in age III. How is that possibly OP? Dutch is now quite strong in team games, but the patch wasn''t balanced around that and a nerf to dutch just so that they are fair in teams is in my opinion really silly.

This!

[momuuu]

I don''t understand why people are getting so upset now that dutch has +2 banks. Its boom is still very expensive and the bonus xp doesn''t do very much to make their early game better. And of course the Dutch should become strong as the game progresses... it''s a boom civ after all. Nobody has a problem with Japan becoming completely faceroll beyond 14 mins but somehow +2 bank cap and suddenly it''s being suggested that Dutch needs a nerf. The 2 bank cards aren''t even that good when you stop to think about it. At 6 banks (which you would presumably have mid fortress) the 20% increase amounts to a 1.2 bank shipment which is like 1.2*4= 4.8 villager shipment, in age III. How is that possibly OP? Dutch is now quite strong in team games, but the patch wasn''t balanced around that and a nerf to dutch just so that they are fair in teams is in my opinion really silly.

having bank wagon, bank of rotterdam and bank of amsterdam is really nice for teamgames.

Regardless, if you had actually taken the time to study the replies in this thread, you could see that the consensus is that they havent been buffed that much for 1v1 and are still one of the weaker civs. The consensus is also that they are amazing in team.

This makes you wonder if the wrong things were buffed.

[Garja]

Not really the wrong things but overboosted the gold income and probably not enough xp for the bank. At the end of the day 140xp per bank (20% of its cost) was just fair.

[Hazza54321]

people seem to miss that you can increase your economy very fast as dutch, considering it takes 25secs to train a vill, you can just build 4 vills really quickly one after the other, plus you are training vills too

[occult11]

I dont understand why people are getting so upset now that dutch has +2 banks. Its boom is still very expensive and the bonus xp doesnt do very much to make their early game better. And of course the Dutch should become strong as the game progresses... its a boom civ after all. Nobody has a problem with Japan becoming completely faceroll beyond 14 mins but somehow +2 bank cap and suddenly its being suggested that Dutch needs a nerf. The 2 bank cards arent even that good when you stop to think about it. At 6 banks (which you would presumably have mid fortress) the 20% increase amounts to a 1.2 bank shipment which is like 1.2*4= 4.8 villager shipment, in age III. How is that possibly OP? Dutch is now quite strong in team games, but the patch wasnt balanced around that and a nerf to dutch just so that they are fair in teams is in my opinion really silly.

having bank wagon, bank of rotterdam and bank of amsterdam is really nice for teamgames.

Regardless, if you had actually taken the time to study the replies in this thread, you could see that the consensus is that they havent been buffed that much for 1v1 and are still one of the weaker civs. The consensus is also that they are amazing in team.

This makes you wonder if the wrong things were buffed.

You may be surprised to learn that discussion of Dutch balance on the EP has occurred outside of this thread, and even forum, Mr. Top Postcount! Nevertheless, a consensus is not a unanimous opinion and my post was directed at those opposed to the "consensus." The statement "Regardless, if you had actually taken the time to study the replies in this thread..." then comes off as unnecessary and aggressive. Good day sir!