Dutch Discussion Thread

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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

They should just give Dutch 7th vill and bring everything back to normal. This bank shit is just so silly in team. In 1v1 it's almost the same.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by iNcog »

Jerom wrote:
iNcog wrote:I think 6 is fine. You won't realistically get the 6th bank in supremacy but it's a good way to consolidate an advantage without going full retard and trying to end the game with units.

Boost Bank XP just a touch, give them a 5 hussar card, I'd even leave the bank cards as they are because they aren't that amazing (just 4v per card, afaik?).

So you completely deny that Dutch is too strong in team? Because Ive heard many great team players, including tibia and veni, say they are.

I like the 9 pike idea. Thatd scew dutch towards my style a bit, which is the most interesting style of dutch imo.


I don't completely deny it at all. I'm just not thinking about team here.

Assuming that each bank is 4 vills and each bank upgrade is also 4 vills, that's 16 extra vills if you build all 6 banks with both bank cards. Surely that's a strong boom, but is it really stronger than Brits, Ports or Japanese in team games? Idk. Dutch top civ in team, sure. Dutch OP in team? lol idk about that
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Porto has always been good in team but now it's OP. Japan has always been OP. I'd say brits is the weakest o these civs. You need a lot of map unlike other civs and still boom is equal. Water maps are different story, though. Dutch is kinda OP but easily rushable.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by iNcog »

Well, boom civs are super strong in team. i'm pretty sure that this is known ^^"

there's russia and france as well btw.
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Garja wrote: ā†‘
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Dutch outbooms brit and japan in team now lol.
Isn t it broken?
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Mimsy for President »

Yes +1. How would you fix that ?

Personally I'd go for :
- 4 banks limit in Age 2 like before and every time you age up, you get +1 limit. You rarely see people build 5 banks in colonial in 1v1 anyway.
- Age 1 bank cards with 10% gathering rate instead of 20% ?
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mimsy for President wrote:Yes +1. How would you fix that ?

Personally I'd go for :
- 4 banks limit in Age 2 like before and every time you age up, you get +1 limit. You rarely see people build 5 banks in colonial in 1v1 anyway.
- Age 1 bank cards with 10% gathering rate instead of 20% ?

I think we should indeee put the bank limit at 4 and change age1 cards to +1 bank (10% of 4 banks isn t even 2vills lol).
Also buff the exp banks give.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by thebritish »

Darwin_ wrote:
thebritish wrote:I think Dutch should get their banks reverted to 4 banks.
Bank of Roterdam and Amsterdam to give +1 bank limit and 10% gather rate.
Make banks cost 300 food and 300 wood (instead of 350 food and 350 wood). Nerf their gold gather rate to 2.5g/s instead of being 2.75g/s.
I've been thinking about this, and honestly, it makes tons of sense. If the end result is to make dutch better in the early game and the same mid-late game, than this is the best way to go.
Make Tulip Speculation give 100% bank gather rate while increasing their cost by +50% or by +100%
Ehhh. I don't really like this. No point in increasing their cost because you already have the infrastructure up by the time you get that card, I think this will be needed, so you can somehow hurt dutch eco. Now you hurt the players eco by going inside their base with cav boxes (opri box, gendarme box [i was the first one who started using this, so players started doing this vs me after that] or brit huss box [not that good, but it can still do a good job] and then you go straight to their factories. Incase you see some villagers (20+), you slow down and try to kill them/or most of them, and then, you continue going to factories. Now if Dutch has expensive, but good banks, you can siege their banks, so they will need to spend more resources on rebuilding them again.

So the malus from it is essentially mute. Better to just buff Tulip Speculation moderately, not a lot.

Increase vill to 60.
I think that it is better to deal with banks, and figure out a way for them to remain the biggest part of the dutch eco, than just buff their settlers. It preserves civ uniqueness, which is something that dutch really need to keep.
This way Dutch can make more banks from start (being cheaper), and in later stage, they can keep up with the other civs eco by getting +100% gather rate for banks.
Also, the 2 cards which give +10% (20% total), will give the banks gather rate of +0.5g/s which will make them to gather 3g/s instead of 2.75g/s while being cheaper (this would require the 2 cards to be sent tho.)
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by yemshi »

Although the FP team didn't want to touch the gameplay, the bank change touched it. And you can't just delete the bank boni and think the players won't argue with you.
I agree with Darwin_ and Hazza54321 but not in all parts.
4 huss=5 /7 ruyters=8 / 8pikes=9
seems reasonable. Dutch doesn't need more
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

The Bank change touched it for team games. Not at all in most 1v1 match-ups.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by thebritish »

zoom wrote:The Bank change touched it for team games. Not at all in most 1v1 match-ups.

It touched it vs Japan too
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

The team hopes so!
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

To go back to a lot of what I said earlier.

We need to ensure that Dutch identity is not being lost through this patch. Many of the proposed changes have been to cards, and shipments/xp in general. I think that this detracts from what dutch really is. They aren't, and should't be, a card/shipment dependent civ like German or Chinese. They should have a boom that requires cards, but their military shouldn't. It makes no sense to buff dutch in a way that can't be controlled all that well by the player (getting a tp is super awkward with dutch, so making their military more reliant on shipments is just bad business).

Changes:
Bank of Amsterdam and Rotterdam are age 1 cards and boost bank limit by 1.
"coffee trade" no longer reduces unit speed as the malus, instead it costs 500 coin.
Tulip Speculation is now +20%
Banks now scale with market upgrades.
7 Ruyter is now 8, 4 hussars is now 5.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Did you bother to read my comment about banks scaling with market upgrades at all? Because if you did, you probably wouldnt suggest that again..
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

Jerom wrote:Did you bother to read my comment about banks scaling with market upgrades at all? Because if you did, you probably wouldnt suggest that again..


I did read your comment, but honestly I still think that they need to be affected by mining upgrades in some way. Maybe not to the same extent, like maybe they take half of the bonus from each upgrade or a fraction around there. The dutch eco is weak very early on for a boom civ, and the mining upgrade option gives them the buff that they need. I still think that the dutch boom needs to be restrained as to not be overpowered, however. The reason why dutch is so good in team and passive gameplay is that they can be super greedy (more than even a British VC build IMO) and can get away with it in those types games due to the lower aggression and base pressure. Here is another modified list of changes I think would be very good for the Dutch.

Changes:
4 huss/5 huss, 7 ruyter/8 ruyter, 8 pike/9 pike
Bank build XP 110/140 kill XP=70
Bank HP -1000
Banks are affected by mining upgrades half as much. (5% from placer mines, 10% amalgamation)
Bank build limit=4
Bank of Amsterdam and Rotterdam +1 bank limit.
Tulip speculation=20%
"coffee trade" no longer reduces unit speed, instead it costs 500 food.

Here is an explanation of each change:
1. Dutch shipments are pretty weak, and they get relatively few of them, so buffing them is a good little bonus. The introduction of 9 pikes allows for easier early defense and makes pike/skirm compositions a little bit better.
2. Dutch receive few shipments, so buffing XP is a good Idea.
3. Raiding dutch, and doing any damage to their Eco is really hard, due to banks representing tons of HP. Lowering HP makes an ever bigger difference in team, where fortress age gameplay is more common, and thus artillery is more common. Artillery is already more of a threat to dutch due to Ruyters being comparatively weak to Dragoons and Banks taking a lot of damage to them.
4. It has been said for years and years that the dutch Eco does;t scale well, and it is common knowledge that is is weakest in the early game. Allowing banks to be affected somewhat by market upgrades would buff their early game Eco.
5. Being greedy is really easy with dutch, so limiting how greedy they can be is essential.
6. Just to ensure that their late-game Eco isn't too weak
7. Slightly better than original. Makes this card actually beneficial to send in a 1v1 setting.
8. Ruyters, specifically, are already weak as they are, so having their speed reduced below that of a dragoons is a very hard nerf. Making the now upgrade cost food makes it somewhat awkward to get, making it a little less valuable.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Thats overbuffing dutch imo. I think 55% upgrade on the banks the dutch lategame was nice. The amsterdam/rotterdam cards arent even that problematic (just 5v shipments).. Its really just the 6 bank thing. If they could get 5 banks, make the amsterdam/rotterdam cards 10%, tullip speculation 35% and religious freedom +3 bank limit I think you might have found a way to get team dutch into a decent spot while not hurting 1v1 dutch.

Then they need something like one or two of the three changes you proposed and theyd be a very nice and balanced civ, winning some and losing some match ups.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by v1pus »

The balances were mainly aimed at 1v1s. The maps too. And now you saying civs need to be changed because their OP in team games? Ai Ai Ai...can't win!! Every coc in team games can be op if played right. I'm not denying they're strong, just saying that your change them and then moan they're too weak in 1v1.

If that makes any sense. I'm abit dehydrated
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by iCourt »

No one disagrees. The problem is they become too strong in team, and hardly change in 1v1. It was the wrong way to boost them.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by fei123456 »

"armsterdam bank" give banks +10% effect and banks can send food.

"rotterdam bank" give banks +10% effect and banks can send wood.

"tulip speculation" give banks +300% (not 30%!) effect instead of 15%

you may say +300% is insane, but remember japan can upgrade their shrines by 300% in age 4 with 500f 500w 500g only :)
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Couprider wrote:"armsterdam bank" give banks +10% effect and banks can send food.

"rotterdam bank" give banks +10% effect and banks can send wood.

"tulip speculation" give banks +300% (not 30%!) effect instead of 15%

you may say +300% is insane, but remember japan can upgrade their shrines by 300% in age 4 with 500f 500w 500g only :)

ROFL, we want to balance team and you want to buff dutch's late game even more.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by fei123456 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Couprider wrote:"armsterdam bank" give banks +10% effect and banks can send food.

"rotterdam bank" give banks +10% effect and banks can send wood.

"tulip speculation" give banks +300% (not 30%!) effect instead of 15%

you may say +300% is insane, but remember japan can upgrade their shrines by 300% in age 4 with 500f 500w 500g only :)

ROFL, we want to balance team and you want to buff dutch's late game even more.

if we dont buff dutch, we should nerf japan shrine's upgrade from 300% to 15% ;) that's a fair play.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by _DB_ »

Is it a problem if Dutch is top civ in team?

Atleast they don't have ashi or lame daimyo or shogun...

their units aren't superspecial like longbows, ashi, 20 range goons or opris

they have simple skirms, ruyters and regular units. They don't even have musk

it cant be denied that they are op in team right now, but their strength in 1v1 isn't as huge change

its not a problem to have 1 more op civ in team civ list
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

I dont think make more op civs is the goal of the patch.
I agree japan is a totally broken and lama civ but we dont need more like that.
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

iCourt wrote:I like Dutch being back to 4 banks.

Age 1- Bank cards +1 to bank limit and increase bank production by like 10-15%. Adjust rate accordingly with testing.

Age 2- Adjust church card so it doesn't decrease unit speed. It's already a penalty Dutch need to ship and research this tech to get a solid economy. It's an indirect boost to their economy as they can kite slightly better, thus losing less units.

Age 3- 5 hussar card. 8 Ruyter card. Keep in mind 4 hussars is a shared card, the 5 hussar card would need to be reduced to 4 hussars, otherwise some civs would have two 5 hussar cards.

Age 4- Bank card boosts like 30-50%. What ever balances out their economy to be fairly inline with other civs. Adjust accordingly.

Thus the meta doesn't change much.


I like these ideas.

Back to 4 bank limit.

Age 1 - +10% gather rate with bank cards +1 bank limit
Age 2 - remove unit speed penalty
Age 4 - +15% gather rate card provide +1 bank wagon

Age 2 unused card: Dutch East india company no longer gives +100% hitponts but provide you +1 bank wagon (cost effect unchanged)
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Re: Dutch Discussion Thread

Post by r4go »

Jerom wrote:Dutch lategame in team is disgusting. Fully upgraded, you have 10 banks gathering at the rate of 4 vills each.is insane. I actually outgathered a Japan and British player in a game going late. The change is unnessesary.

Itd to 4 huss -> 5 huss and 7 ruyter -> 8 ruyter and then reconsider the bank changes.

Agree about the team, dutch on fp is still too op, in 1-1 i think the only civs that can give problems are french, german, china, azzy, jap. But is my idea dude :lol:
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