Aztecs Discussion Thread

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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by fei123456 »

Garja wrote:
Couprider wrote:
Garja wrote:vs jap fast age is just superior, u can do the exact same thing making even just 3 puma and then full mace.
With war hut you can do many things. 3wp 5v 600g is ok for semi ff.

but 2 skull knight = 500 gold. they are insane with cav raids imo, and can auto upgrade when reaching fortress.

2 skull knights are worth much less than that. They dont really catch cav raids vs a good player, take 4 pop that you need early on and on top of that they don't give you fast age up time or extra wood (war hut) which are the 2 things you want from an age up. In fortress they're kinda useless because of skirms.

but they are cool!
anyway 250w age up is not good either. and if i age up with warhut i cant have a warhut before 5:30, thus i have to put it in base, while with skull i can put it outside to control hunt in transition.
but this is not the main idea. i am wondering should azzy go age 3 for erk in some MUs?
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Couprider wrote:
Garja wrote:
Show hidden quotes

2 skull knights are worth much less than that. They dont really catch cav raids vs a good player, take 4 pop that you need early on and on top of that they don't give you fast age up time or extra wood (war hut) which are the 2 things you want from an age up. In fortress they're kinda useless because of skirms.

but they are cool!
anyway 250w age up is not good either. and if i age up with warhut i cant have a warhut before 5:30, thus i have to put it in base, while with skull i can put it outside to control hunt in transition.
but this is not the main idea. i am wondering should azzy go age 3 for erk in some MUs?

Since you age with the fast politician no.
If you age with 2skulls instead of fast age2, you lose 2vills and you get your shipments later which means later tps, 3wp, 5v etc.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by fei123456 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Couprider wrote:
Show hidden quotes

but they are cool!
anyway 250w age up is not good either. and if i age up with warhut i cant have a warhut before 5:30, thus i have to put it in base, while with skull i can put it outside to control hunt in transition.
but this is not the main idea. i am wondering should azzy go age 3 for erk in some MUs?

Since you age with the fast politician no.
If you age with 2skulls instead of fast age2, you lose 2vills and you get your shipments later which means later tps, 3wp, 5v etc.

but aztec do need erk or arrow in some situations. puma is strong but it's still pike, not musk, not goon/erk.
i age up with skull only because i wanna go age 3 with fast age up.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Couprider wrote:
Show hidden quotes

but they are cool!
anyway 250w age up is not good either. and if i age up with warhut i cant have a warhut before 5:30, thus i have to put it in base, while with skull i can put it outside to control hunt in transition.
but this is not the main idea. i am wondering should azzy go age 3 for erk in some MUs?

Since you age with the fast politician no.
If you age with 2skulls instead of fast age2, you lose 2vills and you get your shipments later which means later tps, 3wp, 5v etc.

but aztec do need erk or arrow in some situations. puma is strong but it's still pike, not musk, not goon/erk.
i age up with skull only because i wanna go age 3 with fast age up.[/quote]
You don t need erk.
Spain and port are the only civs which can age3 against an agressive aztek and you can beat their cav with mass coyottes.
I agree that going puma/mace vs musk/huss sux but going mace/erk vs skirm/goon is even worse lol.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

It's not that simple, but basically and generally speaking, controlling the game in colonial > go age3 and let the opponent control the game.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

3WP is bad. The game is not WP if you send 3WP.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by adderbrain5 »

Lukas_L99 wrote:
adderbrain5 wrote:TREATY

There is actually a competitive reason to use Jags. More so in team games when your opponent is not seeing your whole pop constantly(that would make him detect this subterfuge)
Anyway, manage 30+jags behind a whole in one of your opponent's walls and you can be sure to do some serious damage before he can deal with them. It is sort of a strategy, much how the iroquois FB's with stealth prowlers constantly, they know you are doing it, but the idea is to overwhelm them with it. One prowler here making another WH one prowler there... in the same way whenever your teammate is opening a wall be sure to have 25-50 jags stealth and ready to go in, and at the very least clear out his military buildings so that your team can creep. I see aztecs as more of an auxiliary civ on a team. They are sometimes good for providing that one unit to any team member that can make their composition unbeatable. Or build all the walls and town dance etc.

Even 1v1 this strategy of constantly opening walls and stealthign 10-15 jags works well for creeping if you have incredibly sick control group micro to manage it. Personally I don't ;(


Well obviously a decent player will notice if his opponent is fighting with 30+ less population and suspect a run, also a decent player would wall the map which means that you can't pass to his base walls undetected.
Also in current meta the explorer is used at the main fight in every game (and obviously revived in the TC once its 'dead'), so every stealthed unit will become visible as soon as you get close enough to his army.

The biggest problem of Aztecs is countering a mix of musketeers and skimishers since they don't have artillery, many jaguars/coyotes die before reaching the target and macehualtin only do 16x2 damage versus heavy infantry (yes, their ROF is 1.5, still not good). An idea I had was giving macehualtin +1 bonus versus heavy inf by sending the age 3 card for 1000 coin (comparable to royal green jackets from India), but I am not entirely sure in what way this change would influence sup balance.
Another problem is sieging walls, arrow knights cost 2 pop and they take ages to destroy a wall, also if you make too many of them your army becomes too small.



yeah, I agree with you on basically everything. A good player will GENERALLY notice 30 pop missing, but maybe not if he's getting worn down, the game is wearing on... I've seen even the best have slips of attention that cost them the game like that. that's why it must be a constant effort. like a tug of war its a game of mental focus endurance in treaty I find. And a great player could easily miss 10-15 pop actually. 10 jags can take down a factory pretty quick FU btw. Definitely true that aztecs die hard to mass skirmisher/musk. and throw some artillery in there for that matter if u really want to fuk them. You didn't mention how shitty arrow knights are vs art in addition to being expensive and pop ineffective.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

It wouldn t influence sup since
1) Nobody goes age3
2) Nobody sends that card
3) Nobody makes musk in fortress.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by thebritish »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:It wouldn t influence sup since
1) Nobody goes age3
2) Nobody sends that card
3) Nobody makes musk in fortress.

Brits, russia, japan, india and otto make musk in fortress...
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by KINGofOsmane »

thebritish wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:It wouldn t influence sup since
1) Nobody goes age3
2) Nobody sends that card
3) Nobody makes musk in fortress.

Brits, russia, japan, india and otto make musk in fortress...

OH RLY THEBRITISH
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by thebritish »

KINGofOsmane wrote:
thebritish wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:It wouldn t influence sup since
1) Nobody goes age3
2) Nobody sends that card
3) Nobody makes musk in fortress.

Brits, russia, japan, india and otto make musk in fortress...

OH RLY THEBRITISH

hi PR1
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by KINGofOsmane »

thebritish wrote:
KINGofOsmane wrote:
Show hidden quotes

OH RLY THEBRITISH

hi PR1

why dont you teach me pr40 boy?
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by thebritish »

I already did. check my post which you quoted..



[spoiler=spoiler]Fuck this quote limit nonsense[/spoiler]
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by adderbrain5 »

H4all wrote:Pretty sure if you put any unit vs the amount of jags that the unit costs pop will lose against the jag(s). Stealth makes up for their lack of range, although I never used them 1v1 so not sure how that would work out against a skirm/musk combo. Guess they have a weakness there.

vs muskets they actually rek if they can close distance. They do have a bonus vs HI. Russian musks are toast vs jags, really only FU brit musks that I would think serve a serious challenge.Maybe guererro or ashi especially for their speed.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

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Post by saveyourskill »

Math Time?
Arrow Knight Stats
Type: Ranged Infantry, Infantry, Siege Unit, Siege Trooper.
50 Food 75 Coin 2 Pop
HP 150
Range Resist 40%
Speed 3.75
1st shot takes 2sec around there and after its more like 1.5sec
Siege Attack 36 (x2 vs Ships) 30 Range
Ranged Attack 10 (x5 vs Artillery) 30 Range
Hand Attack 6

So, Light cannons, heavy cannons, and falconets all are artillery that have 75% range resist.
Then we got arrow knights over here doing 50 attack minus 75% to those cannons, which is 12.5 attack each shot right?
So it SHOULD take but there is a bug that I came across where the arrow doesn't hit... or maybe its just in the game? More rng great.
I've tested (can try 8 AK(arrow knight) vs 1 falconet too and same thing happens) 10 AK vs 1 heavy cannon without the cannon firing back. So 10 AK = 125dmg per shot then.
10 AK should kill the heavy cannon(475hp) in 4 shots(500dmg) then? But it doesn't, not sure why but after the last shot the cannon has had 12hp,25hp,37hp, and 50hp I have came acrossed.
But I have not had them kill it in 4 shots. wtf
Now we got light cannons doing 70 siege dmg with 2 area x2 vs inf aka AK and hey guess what they got more range than them to how great (32 range).
Falconets got 100 siege dmg 26 range with 3 area x3 vs inf. Heavy cannons have 200 siege dmg 28 range with 4 area x3 vs inf. 600dmg with 4 area vs their so called counter unit for aztec.
AK out range heavy cannons by 2 range. 8 AKs cost 400f 600c 16pop and do 100dmg per shot to heavy cannons if all shots hit.....
Then we got 1 shot from 1 heavy cannon that costs 200w 500c 7pop doing 600dmg with 4 area. However 8AK will beat 1 heavy cannon but it will take 5-6 shots to kill it with 8AK.
The heavy cannon will shoot like 2-4 shots depending on positioning. That's at least 400-800dmg. 1200-2400dmg vs inf with 4 area crushing your whole aztec army.

8 AKs cost 400f 600c 16pop and do 100dmg per shot to falconets if all shots hit.....
Then we got 1 shot from 2 falconets that costs 200w 800c 10pop doing 600dmg with 3 area. However 8AK will beat a falconet but it will take 2-3 shots to kill it with 8AK.
Both falconets in total will shoot like 2-5 shots depending on positioning. That's at least 200-500dmg. 600-1500dmg vs inf with 3 area.

So as we can see here the arrow knight is trash against what they are suppose to do well against.
Better yet they just tickle other units. I even feel like their siege attack to buildings isn't that great at all aswell.
Plus these guys take up 2 pop man what is that. Abus are better artillery snipers than arrow knights lol.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by iCourt »

Arrows miss their target for all units other than Japanese monks. This is why you aren't killing those cannons in one shot every time. Someone did some calculations and we had a whole thread on non gunpowder projectile units missing shots a few months ago.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by rsy »

Maybe we should try to boost the fortress age shipments to make an aztec semi more viable, maybe make 11 maces 13 maces and 13 maces 15
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Main problem woth AK is the speed which makes no sense since they are slower than most artillery while supposed to be more mobile. Speed should definetely be 4.
Also pop space is quite annoying especially when you need many of them becauase then it is impossible to also have other units.
1 pop and +5g cost would be a good change imo.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by schiegfried »

Just asking, but is there a possibility to make mace somewhat decent vs light inv? They should be the scirm unit, but you loose every scirm war with them. Thoughts?
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by rsy »

schiegfried wrote:Just asking, but is there a possibility to make mace somewhat decent vs light inv? They should be the scirm unit, but you loose every scirm war with them. Thoughts?

Light inf means coyote runners/tiger claws/other units with the light inf tag. Don't see any reason to make them better vs said units honestly.
When it comes to skirmisher wars, I don't think maces lose very hard but I don't know very much abt that either. Also, skirms have the tag ranged inf I think :idea:
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by schiegfried »

rsy wrote:
schiegfried wrote:Just asking, but is there a possibility to make mace somewhat decent vs light inv? They should be the scirm unit, but you loose every scirm war with them. Thoughts?

Light inf means coyote runners/tiger claws/other units with the light inf tag. Don't see any reason to make them better vs said units honestly.
When it comes to skirmisher wars, I don't think maces lose very hard but I don't know very much abt that either. Also, skirms have the tag ranged inf I think :idea:


well yeah, i meant ofc true scirms. I still dont know what to do vs goon scirm combo as aztecs, its just frustrating to play against it.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Garja wrote:Main problem woth AK is the speed which makes no sense since they are slower than most artillery while supposed to be more mobile. Speed should definetely be 4.
Also pop space is quite annoying especially when you need many of them becauase then it is impossible to also have other units.
1 pop and +5g cost would be a good change imo.

tbh i think theyre utter ass and deserve an attack bonus also
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

Hazza54321 wrote:
Garja wrote:Main problem woth AK is the speed which makes no sense since they are slower than most artillery while supposed to be more mobile. Speed should definetely be 4.
Also pop space is quite annoying especially when you need many of them becauase then it is impossible to also have other units.
1 pop and +5g cost would be a good change imo.

tbh i think theyre utter ass and deserve an attack bonus also

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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

They have 1.5 rof so 20dmg without upgrades.
With 30 range they are basically super lbows and dont cost that more than skirms currently.
They dont have negative bonus vs cav and have more rr than skirms.
They are a cool unit just need one pop and speed to be more viable.
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Re: Aztec Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Garja wrote:They have 1.5 rof so 20dmg without upgrades.
With 30 range they are basically super lbows and dont cost that more than skirms currently.
They dont have negative bonus vs cav and have more rr than skirms.
They are a cool unit just need one pop and speed to be more viable.

They do not kill buildings and art for their pop and cost unless after a long time

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