Germans Discussion Thread

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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

i agree, we tested 180 previously, everyone hated it so what do you do, implement it again.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

That's like 4 less ulhans at the 15 min mark in the worst case. Basically doesn't change anything.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Has the attack reduction instead of hp reduction been considered yet?
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

gamevideo113 wrote:Has the attack reduction instead of hp reduction been considered yet?


Very bad idea, high dam makes uhlans unique, we wouldn't have it any other way.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

35 attack is still high. Abus dps also used to make them unique...
Arguably it's also a less impactful nerf compared to -10 hp considering uhlans are melee units
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

gamevideo113 wrote:35 attack is still high. Abus dps also used to make them unique...
Arguably it's also a less impactful nerf compared to -10 hp considering uhlans are melee units


Abus attack was insane. Even with dps nerf they are still very strong, vulnerable only to mass melee cav only. Dps nerf just makes em more skill demanding, in a way so you need to micro them a bit more. Other than that they are not different in any other way.

As for uhlan debate, I also dislike like hp nerf, but if they still insist on it, I would settle on middle ground, being -5hp or 185hp total. Other than that i am in school which propagates small price tweak....
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Knew it would be a waste of time to try and argue about constructive changes in that thread anyway
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

The problem with changing unit stats is that it really messes with the RE - EP compatability. In your mind you might be thinking you have RE uhlans, take a fight you think you'll win and then randomly lose the fight. It's frustrating to players I think. Also, nerfing one of the few good german units probably wasn't the way to go. Germany has always mediocre anti cav: dopps and war wagons are really bad. It just feels bad that Uhlans are actually shit now too. Even if balance wise the change is fine, I think it's just too frustrating.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

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Post by Goodspeed »

The problem with cost increase instead of stats nerf is that the cost increase would need to be large to have sufficient impact. After all, many or all of Germany's uhlans are from shipments. Then, to balance the civ, we would need to make the unit very bad per cost (think 50-120) and this would mess with teamgames and colonial age styles even more than the current change.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

momuuu wrote:The problem with changing unit stats is that it really messes with the RE - EP compatability. In your mind you might be thinking you have RE uhlans, take a fight you think you'll win and then randomly lose the fight. It's frustrating to players I think. Also, nerfing one of the few good german units probably wasn't the way to go. Germany has always mediocre anti cav: dopps and war wagons are really bad. It just feels bad that Uhlans are actually shit now too. Even if balance wise the change is fine, I think it's just too frustrating.

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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Well, that's mostly a problem with the players than with the change itself.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by supernapoleon »

Just give them the heavy inf tag => die faster
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:Well, that's mostly a problem with the players than with the change itself.

The players are what matters right? Because the game is played by players for the enjoyment of the players, and thus a change shouldn't frustrate players.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

With Germans, it really is just a lack of alternatives. I don't like the change much, but there is just nothing better imo.
I think the result of the HP change has been good, actually. German armies are now much more diverse and the civ seems balanced. Uhlans are a glass cannon unit, as intended.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Theres things that have never even been tested. Actually only one thing was tested and that is definitely not a great change (except that it does do the job of balancing it, however many things would achieve that properly).

I would argue its worse than:
- increasing the xp modifier so that germany gets slightly less shipments
- 3 SW + 2 Uhlan -> 3 SW
- uhlan slight cost increase (because of mentioned negatives of nerfing uhlan stats)
- fortress shipments only give +2 uhlans
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

momuuu wrote:
Garja wrote:Well, that's mostly a problem with the players than with the change itself.

The players are what matters right? Because the game is played by players for the enjoyment of the players, and thus a change shouldn't frustrate players.

Well no. It's not that because someone decided to call Germans a "meme civ" or ulhans a "meme unit" that I'm going to question the change.
Facts are that -10hp is a reasonable nerf and that all other alternatives are inferior in a way or another.

momuuu wrote:Theres things that have never even been tested. Actually only one thing was tested and that is definitely not a great change (except that it does do the job of balancing it, however many things would achieve that properly).

I would argue its worse than:
- increasing the xp modifier so that germany gets slightly less shipments bad for not TP maps and colonial in general
- 3 SW + 2 Uhlan -> 3 SW why should the civ bonus removed from a shipment
- uhlan slight cost increase (because of mentioned negatives of nerfing uhlan stats) can do that but I'm not sure it is any better than the HP nerf. I think if we ever try this option we should increase the food cost.
- fortress shipments only give +2 uhlans probably not impactful enough to address the balance issue but enough to screw the civ balance/design as the game goes on (since 2 ulhans won't compensate the penalty)
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Djigit »

momuuu wrote:Theres things that have never even been tested. Actually only one thing was tested and that is definitely not a great change (except that it does do the job of balancing it, however many things would achieve that properly).

I would argue its worse than:
- increasing the xp modifier so that germany gets slightly less shipments
- 3 SW + 2 Uhlan -> 3 SW
- uhlan slight cost increase (because of mentioned negatives of nerfing uhlan stats)
- fortress shipments only give +2 uhlans
Personally, I would change none of their age 2 shipments, even if they affect age 3. I like your first and your last suggestions though.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

- increasing the xp modifier so that germany gets slightly less shipments
German's civ bonus is that their shipments are stronger, if we then compensate by making their shipments less frequent then they might as well not have a civ bonus. I already disagree with the decision to give them a shipment malus. It's entirely the wrong way to compensate for the strength of their civ bonus. I don't want to make it even worse.
It's similar to what they did to Spain. Their shipments were so fast that they became OP, so they nerfed their shipments into the ground. Great job guys. You get trainwrecks like 3 lancers in fortress age and start wondering if 3 shipments of yours may be just as good as 2 shipments of theirs.
- 3 SW + 2 Uhlan -> 3 SW
I don't think this would have been enough to balance Germans. And this, too, is nerfing their civ bonus. It's also messing with an otherwise consistent game design which I'm not a fan of.
- uhlan slight cost increase (because of mentioned negatives of nerfing uhlan stats)
I addressed this in my previous post. In short, I think it would need to be a rather large cost increase in order to have enough impact to balance the civ.
- fortress shipments only give +2 uhlans
This is also a direct nerf to their civ bonus.

Out of the ones you mentioned, changes to SW (shipments) are most appealing to me. But I would sooner nerf SW's gather rate than remove uhlans from shipments. Another problem I have with this though is that 3 SW is such a core German feature and I can imagine German players love sending it. I know I do when I play the civ. I'd prefer not to mess with that.

The SW gather rate was seriously considered but we decided against it in the end. Honestly, Germans seem great currently. Like I said they are balanced and their army is now diverse, instead of 90% uhlan. I don't see the problem.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

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Post by Kaiserklein »

Increasing the xp penalty isn't really an option because it makes germany be even more reliant on TPs. Currently, if you didn't get a decent amount of xp in age 1 by killing treasure guardians or getting an xp treas or whatever, you don't have a shipment ready upon colonial on a no TP map as germany. And you get your second colo shipment popping at 7 min sometimes. By increasing the xp penalty, it will just make germany even shittier on no tp maps, while they will be still fine on TP maps because of, well, the TP.

The 3 SW without uhlans would be ok I guess. It would make it easier for some civs to go cav semi against germany and it would also mean no early 2 uhlans raid if ger goes 3 SW. But I'm not sure it will really be enough of a nerf if we have a typical semi ff game with a big fight at 10+ min. Could maybe be coupled together with the uhlan cost increase, which is also a decent nerf.

I'm not a fan of 2 uhlans in fortress, because I think it kills the logic behind the civ. I feel like you're supposed to get more free uhlans when you advance in the ages, as an incentive for ger to try and age up. But at the end of the day it maybe works regardless so idk.

The hp change is just ugly. Uhlans are supposed to perform rather poorly against ranged units, because of their low hp. Now we made them even weaker at range, but we also made them quite bad in melee fights as well, since 180 hp means 1 less hit in melee from a lot of units (huss, pumas, coyotes, ruskets, cossacks, jans...). So uhlans become underwhelming, and that really makes the civ unfriendly to people used to playing the classic germany. It also made the civ a bit too weak, at least in previous patch (not sure about this one). And like I said it kills a bit the design of the uhlan being supposed to perform well in melee fights.
And it's just so awkward anyway because it's not a change where you can easily tweak the numbers to fix the balance. Every time you change 1 or 2 hp, some units will need 1 less hit to kill a uhlan, making germany weaker in some specific match ups only. For example 181 hp uhlans means that germany still dominates the cav semi fights against civs going for a huss semi (fr, port, dutch...), while 180 hp means uhlans become sucky against huss. So yeah it just doesn't work, because it will be super impactful in some mus, almost irrelevant in some others (in some mus you don't really train uhlans regardless), and instead of balancing it just creates a kind of chaos.
If we want to nerf the unit itself, which I guess is a decent way to nerf germany, we might as well just increase the cost. I actually would like 60f 100g, because increasing the gold cost would make germany deplete their gold mines even faster. Or 70f if needed, here it's easy to tweak the numbers.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

i dont like removing 2 uhlans from 3sw, the 2 uhlan killing fb vills is a nice trait german can potentially have
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

@Kaiserklein But you realize a cost increase will have no impact unless it's a big one? If in 10 minutes you have about 20-30 uhlans, more than half will have been free. Let's say you've trained ~15. With a cost increase of 10 food, that costs you 150f. At 10 minutes this doesn't really change anything. Even with 20f (70/100) it would be only -300f. And that's if you make uhlans in the first place, which you don't have to. You can also just rely on the free ones.
And keep in mind a cost increase of 20f or 20c would be a 13% increase. This HP change was a 6% decrease. So people complaining that Uhlans aren't cost effective and somehow being okay with a cost increase are contradicting themselves.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

you say 150f isnt alot, but isnt there some statistic of port vills that sounds similar, yet it impacted the civ a lot
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

Port have 15f per vill. In 10 min they will make about 30 vills. That's 450f. Not even close. Another big difference is that the Port change is an economic bonus that starts to pay off immediately in the early game, while this proposed German change would only start to have impact when you train uhlans, which you don't even have to do.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Yea you could just make 5 uhlans for the semi, and then train skirms/WW and rely on uhlan shipment so the nerf would be irrelevant.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Goodspeed wrote:@Kaiserklein But you realize a cost increase will have no impact unless it's a big one? If in 10 minutes you have about 20-30 uhlans, more than half will have been free. Let's say you've trained ~15. With a cost increase of 10 food, that costs you 150f. At 10 minutes this doesn't really change anything. Even with 20f (70/100) it would be only -300f. And that's if you make uhlans in the first place, which you don't have to. You can also just rely on the free ones.
And keep in mind a cost increase of 20f or 20c would be a 13% increase. This HP change was a 6% decrease. So people complaining that Uhlans aren't cost effective and somehow being okay with a cost increase are contradicting themselves.

If it's not big enough, you can add a small nerf on top, like the 3 SW without uhlans or whatever.
Anyway it makes it harder to get uhlans out in colonial for sure. You make it sound like it's no big deal and half the uhlans are free... Did you see my game against dicktator in the finals, ger vs fr? I'm sure I had around 20-25 uhlans in colo, with only 6 free uhlans. Imagine 20 extra food for each of these, say, 15 uhlans I produced, and it's already 300f, before even aging. So 1-2 less uhlans for ger in colo and/or delayed fortress time. It's maybe not enough but it's a good start. And it's exactly in this kind of situation, the cav semi wars, that the german uhlan mass needs to be nerfed a bit. Then yeah, we might need another nerf on top of that.
The % don't really matter in a lot of cases. 1 less hit is in most cases at least a 10% hp decrease in practice. And it also applies on the free uhlans, unlike the cost change.
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