Germans Discussion Thread

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Italy Garja
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

2 vet ulhans dont kill 1 WW. WW barely wins without kiting. With kite it could probably kill 3 ulhans.
In any case it only shows how OP ulhan attack is rather than WW being bad or anything. Pretty much any other ranged cav do worse than WW in the same situation, e.g. 2 vet ulhans killing 2 goons without kite.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:2 vet ulhans dont kill 1 WW. WW barely wins without kiting. With kite it could probably kill 3 ulhans.
In any case it only shows how OP ulhan attack is rather than WW being bad or anything. Pretty much any other ranged cav do worse than WW in the same situation, e.g. 2 vet ulhans killing 2 goons without kite.


Rofl I don't understand how we can find different stuff. I just tried 20 uhlans vs 10 ww and I had 9 uhlans left. I guess I'll have to try it with someone and rec it. It also works with huss btw, not just uhlans...
Yes goons are obviouly much worse once meleed, but that's the point : goons can't really be meleed because they are faster and kite properly... WWs can't avoid getting meleed though, even if they will be able to get a few free shots before it happens.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

Kaiserklein wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Just try uhlans against wws in attack move. Once wws already kited, once they get caught by uhlans, they just die. 2 vet uhlans > 1 vet ww without kiting. When you know how bad wws are at kiting, you know uhlans will catch them fast, and then uhlans > ww


How many uhlans, and are we talking about vet or regular? I tested 2 vet uhlans vs one ww and ww wins without kiting at all with few hp left.

With 2 vet uhlans you kill a ww though


I double checked, ww wins vs 2 vet uhlans without kiting with 38 average hp left. It had one free shot until uhlans closed in and attacked. With kiting you can almost get away with 2 free shots, so result is even better.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by iNcog »

50 150 = 200

200 * 2 = 400

400 resources vs 300 resources

300 resources barely wins, but it's supposed to be the hard counter.

Yeah, they aren't amazing units for sure, but need to take things into context. Normally ranged cav are behind a meat-shield of some sort, not tanking damage
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Atomiswave wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:
Show hidden quotes

With 2 vet uhlans you kill a ww though


I double checked, ww wins vs 2 vet uhlans without kiting with 38 average hp left. It had one free shot until uhlans closed in and attacked. With kiting you can almost get away with 2 free shots, so result is even better.

If your wws attack at range, yes. But I was talking about once you caught wws, = 2 uhlans next to the ww.
That's not relevant anyway, better try with 20 uhlans vs 10 ww for example. And you will see that even if your uhlans get shot before they reach the wws they still rape them (like I said, 9 uhlans left out of 20)

iNcog wrote:50 150 = 200

200 * 2 = 400

400 resources vs 300 resources

300 resources barely wins, but it's supposed to be the hard counter.

Yeah, they aren't amazing units for sure, but need to take things into context. Normally ranged cav are behind a meat-shield of some sort, not tanking damage

Uhlans cost 50f 100g not 150g
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Kaiserklein wrote:Yes goons are obviouly much worse once meleed, but that's the point : goons can't really be meleed because they are faster and kite properly... WWs can't avoid getting meleed though, even if they will be able to get a few free shots before it happens.


WW take enough shots before just cleaning it up with meele resistance. Ofc if you're outmassed you can't save them, while you can save goons, but that's how the civ is supposed to work.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Yes goons are obviouly much worse once meleed, but that's the point : goons can't really be meleed because they are faster and kite properly... WWs can't avoid getting meleed though, even if they will be able to get a few free shots before it happens.


WW take enough shots before just cleaning it up with meele resistance. Ofc if you're outmassed you can't save them, while you can save goons, but that's how the civ is supposed to work.

I'm pretty sure uhlans will still win if ww kite, just need to try it
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by iNcog »

@Kaiserklein oops shit

so 300 resources vs 300 resources and the hard counter barely wins. well comment still stands in that it's not supposed to be tanking
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

iNcog wrote:@Kaiserklein oops shit

so 300 resources vs 300 resources and the hard counter barely wins. well comment still stands in that it's not supposed to be tanking

Yes, normal ranged cav isn't supposed to be tanking. But why do wws have a melee resist if they're not supposed to be tanking melee attacks ? Also goons don't have to tank since they can run, but wws can't. Atm if I bring pure uhlans against skirm/goon, with equal investment, I will be able to kill every single skirms but then goons will kite uhlans to death. If I bring pure uhlans against ww/skirms, I just kill everything np, and no way you can run. WWs basicall don't do their job properly.
I'm not complaining about german anti cav overall, because uhlans are enough (or almost) to kill cav in most match ups. It's just about ger mirrors tbh. The optimal ger mirror composition is simply br + full uhlans. Unless you mix dops in fortress, but nobody does that
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

Yeah nobody does that!
Nobody used to build TPs with Germans, either. I've been saying this for a while but full uhlan in German mirrors is one of the more misguided phenomena in the current meta.

WW are not as good as the best unit in the game. The melee resist is awkward.Is that such a disaster? they still counter cav so let's move on already.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by iNcog »

Hey that's fair when i'm German I mix in doppels before WW. <_<

Melee HI in general is a bit underestimated imo, since their primary purpose is to ward off Cav in the first place, they don't need to be fast or have a lot of reach or anything. They just need to be tanky and have good dps.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Goodspeed wrote:Yeah nobody does that!
Nobody used to build TPs with Germans, either. I've been saying this for a while but full uhlan in German mirrors is one of the more misguided phenomena in the current meta.

WW are not as good as the best unit in the game. The melee resist is awkward.Is that such a disaster? they still counter cav so let's move on already.

No, they don't really counter cav, as I said. They don't tank, they don't have a high dps (uhlans have more dps than wws, against any unit), they are slow. I remember playing a few ger mirrors against h2o, going full uhlans. I lost because I did mistakes, but I remember my pure uhlans mass was more effective than his mix.
Indeed, people might start mixing dops in fortress in ger mirrors. That would be when people realize that pure uhlans actually beats any ww/skirm/uhlan composition, but they haven't yet. Though I'm not sure dops would even be useful because BR + uhlans would still rek dops + uhlans
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by iNcog »

Well what about BR/Uhlan vs Skirm/Dopp?
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Lel I went 2x stable ulhan in tourney game and it didnt work vs WW cause of pathing issue. Ofc ulhans can kill ww+skirm, you normally have 50 of them by that stage. And btw you can put WW in melee once they get caught.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

well, isn't War Wagons being shitty the only reason germany is remotely fine in the first place? I mean, they jsut get almost twice the military at 10-14 minutes compared to most civs, they better have some sort of weakness.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:Lel I went 2x stable ulhan in tourney game and it didnt work vs WW cause of pathing issue. Ofc ulhans can kill ww+skirm, you normally have 50 of them by that stage. And btw you can put WW in melee once they get caught.

If you go pure uhlans you shouldn't wait till 50 uhlans mass imo, rather poke in asap. Don't wait till your uhlans path like shit. Also it's kinda safe to push with full cav, you can't really get caught. I guess ww+cav might beat full cav, but if the guy goes ww he won't have br so with br + cav you win

Jerom wrote:well, isn't War Wagons being shitty the only reason germany is remotely fine in the first place? I mean, they jsut get almost twice the military at 10-14 minutes compared to most civs, they better have some sort of weakness.

Yeah at least twice the military. Maybe even 3 times more.
Well if you want german to carry on being broken because their uhlans mass is op but their wws are useless, then keep it that way. I'd rather have weaker uhlans and viable wws, for a less broken balance.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Well it's interesting in terms of design at least. I mean, making Germany another skirm goon civ is possibly the worst thing you can do..
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by forgrin »

People realising that the more ulhan = better is what makes that mitoe early BR build so good.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Jerom wrote:Well it's interesting in terms of design at least. I mean, making Germany another skirm goon civ is possibly the worst thing you can do..

It will never be a skirm goon civ because you have a large amount of free uhlans + those from semi. I don't want wws to be goons, just make uhlans be a bit less op and wws a bit more viable
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

But then they'd need some sort of nerf on top of that, imo. They are really strong atm I think.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

WW are totally viable in mass. It's like saying that CA are not viable when they totally are.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

WW shouldn't be modified in any way, at least for the time being. Lets see how will uhlan nerf affect overall balance first.
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:WW are totally viable in mass. It's like saying that CA are not viable when they totally are.

No because CA have better stats than wws by far. Try to catch them with uhlans and see how they don't give a shit
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by KINGofOsmane »

#buff germany
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Re: German Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

Ye, 5 cav archers are equal to 5 war wagons. Thats so silly. #buffwarwagons
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