Germans Discussion Thread

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– "Lippizaner Cavalry" home-city shipment increased from +15% to +25% Uhlan attack & hitpoints.

[Garja]

Should consider nerfing mercenary combat card, btw.

[Hazza54321]

honestly this uhlan nerf fking sucks lol, 333 hp in age 4 royal guard with 2 cards lol, same as age 2 huss, fking joke

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honestly this uhlan nerf fking sucks lol, 333 hp in age 4 royal guard with 2 cards lol, same as age 2 huss, fking joke

Does that mean you agree with my above suggestion?

[Hazza54321]

honestly this uhlan nerf fking sucks lol, 333 hp in age 4 royal guard with 2 cards lol, same as age 2 huss, fking joke

Does that mean you agree with my above suggestion?

i think yes and uhlans 190hp again, less uhlan per shipment

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I personally agree with that.

[Garja]

Are you sure it's 333hp with cards? I remember czapka hving something like 400 hps regardless of cards.
Anyway, 180hp ulhans is prob overnerf. 185hp seemed a better solution, affecting goons and few other units but not cav wars. 180hp makes sense with dopp buff, but is that really needed?
I suppose I'm fine with either 180-240 hp respectively or 185-230. Perhaps, 185-240 20% respectively while nerfing the big4 shipments in fortress is the best compromise.
One thing to consider with the ulhan combat buff is that attack becomes a bit hilarious.

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According to Goodspeed, there was consensus before the last patch that Germans were OP with 185hp Uhlans.

It's 342 hitpoints, without LC. Also, yes – another 3.7 attack.

[Pride]

just let czpka uhlans like the normal czpka uhlan from re,
less uhlans per shipment is bad imo, -1 uhlan can fck this civ

[Hazza54321]

185 or 190hp uhlans pls, useless fking unit

[Kaiserklein]

@Hazza54321 So you could be fine with RE uhlans, buffed dops and nerfed dragoons? I think ger could be OP.

Sadly the problem is that the gap between 180 and 180+ hp is enough to cause uhlans to be shit in some cases. For example vs azzy, 180 hp means uhlans die in 3 (!) puma hits, 1 less coyo hit, and a couple less maces shots. Also die to tc in 1 less hit, though arguably on RE if the guy pops a vil he can snipe ur 0 hp uhlan after 3 tc hits so it doesn't matter much, but still makes it way easier to have tc fire snipe the uhlans efficiently. And then ofc 1 less hit from huss is the biggest issue since huss are such a common unit. So no matter what kind of hp tweak we do, germany is gonna be either too strong or not enough. The hp around 180 is just a breaking point for the uhlan and also for ger's strength.

Which is why we need to find another way to nerf germany instead. I'd revert uhlan change since the unit isn't op, and its special feature is to be better at cav fights because their stats when in melee are usually better, while being weaker against range units because they get kited to death and drop so fast with their low hp. So it's just logical that uhlans beat huss, since they suck more vs skirms goons etc. Meanwhile, the dop change could arguably be kept, though it's not really necessary, and I'd also like to keep the uhlan combat change just because german units kinda suck in late game and the card is an age 4 card that is currently worse than cav combat because it doesn't affect wws...
We need a significant nerf for germany on the other hand. Not gonna write here again what kind of changes germany could be given (unless someone really wants me to) because I detailed that already more than once in these forums.

[saveyourskill]

I think uhlans shouldn't be 180hp like Kaiser said. I think 185hp is fine but the reason why they nerfed them was because of how many they can mass so fast with shipments. If they buff Germany with the uhlan hp and want to make sure they don't get out of control as before they could change the shipments costing 8% more XP (than other civs but India and Spain) to 10% or perhaps even higher as 2% more isn't much but can add up over time.
Germany uhlans HP changed from 180hp to 185hp or 190hp. Germany shipment extra XP cost changed from 8% to 10%. Something like that to be more simpler.

[Hazza54321]

@Hazza54321 So you could be fine with RE uhlans, buffed dops and nerfed dragoons? I think ger could be OP.

Sadly the problem is that the gap between 180 and 180+ hp is enough to cause uhlans to be shit in some cases. For example vs azzy, 180 hp means uhlans die in 3 (!) puma hits, 1 less coyo hit, and a couple less maces shots. Also die to tc in 1 less hit, though arguably on RE if the guy pops a vil he can snipe ur 0 hp uhlan after 3 tc hits so it doesn't matter much, but still makes it way easier to have tc fire snipe the uhlans efficiently. And then ofc 1 less hit from huss is the biggest issue since huss are such a common unit. So no matter what kind of hp tweak we do, germany is gonna be either too strong or not enough. The hp around 180 is just a breaking point for the uhlan and also for ger's strength.

Which is why we need to find another way to nerf germany instead. I'd revert uhlan change since the unit isn't op, and its special feature is to be better at cav fights because their stats when in melee are usually better, while being weaker against range units because they get kited to death and drop so fast with their low hp. So it's just logical that uhlans beat huss, since they suck more vs skirms goons etc. Meanwhile, the dop change could arguably be kept, though it's not really necessary, and I'd also like to keep the uhlan combat change just because german units kinda suck in late game and the card is an age 4 card that is currently worse than cav combat because it doesn't affect wws...
We need a significant nerf for germany on the other hand. Not gonna write here again what kind of changes germany could be given (unless someone really wants me to) because I detailed that already more than once in these forums.

i think with the current state of brit dutch india it would be fine, however ssy suggestion or less uhlan per shipment is an option although the patch team seem too stubborn to think of any innovative changes apart from reducing hp on an already fragile and shitty unit

[Goodspeed]

Those changes were all considered. If uhlans were so shitty, then why were German armies 90% uhlan on RE patch? The reason we chose to nerf the unit itself is that it was dominant in German armies. This change encourages diversity. As for uhlan fragility, that is a core feature of the unit. It's supposed to be glass cannon.
For team games I can imagine uhlans aren't great in fights any more. I don't think that's necessarily a problem, because they are great raiders. Late game, the card buff in EP5 makes up for the HP nerf.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Yea, honestly RE uhlans are really good, better than huss for sure.

[Hazza54321]

so you think removing their only colonial unit is the correct choice of providing unit diversity?, why not buff ww speed or smth and have 185hp uhlan. 90% is just strictly false and you know it, ofc its gonna be a core unit considering its germans main unit lol, half the uhlan mass is from shipments anyway (i wonder what we could do to reduce the number ) its like nerfing lbs because its "90%" of brits army composition.
About the team game thing, are we really gonna have to wait for age 4 to have acceptable uhlans again?, and thats sending it after 2 hcs and 2 factories.

[princeofcarthage]

Thing with uhlans are they are insane damage dealers, if you can get good surround with them, and few skirms in back then they are absolutely insane, and part of the reason is people fail to micro properly in surround, the skirms aren't even a threat at that moment, the first priority is always to kill those uhlans, which many fail to do. Regardless of counter/no counter, if you are engaged in melee, its absolutely neccessary to kill melee units first. Uhlans in age 2 on RE are only good cuz you get free with shipments and are excellant raiders. If you have 5 uhlan 5 huss, huss wins hands down

[lordraphael]

ger is fine in 1v1. Idc in team games. Reverse the sowar buff, nerf brit and we take a step in the right direction. To me brit and india and dutch to some extent are the civs that cause the mostp roblems to balance atm, apart from those 3 balance is pretty close i think. Ofc theres jap who needs a slight buff in the early and a nerf of their mid late game.

[EAGLEMUT]

ger is fine in 1v1. Idc in team games. Reverse the sowar buff, nerf brit and we take a step in the right direction. To me brit and india and dutch to some extent are the civs that cause the mostp roblems to balance atm, apart from those 3 balance is pretty close i think. Ofc theres jap who needs a slight buff in the early and a nerf of their mid late game.

Sounds like EP5

[[Armag] diarouga]

What's wrong with the sowar buff? I mean, they're still trash, and I still wouldn't make sowars, so the buff isn't actually a buff.

[lordraphael]

What's wrong with the sowar buff? I mean, they're still trash, and I still wouldn't make sowars, so the buff isn't actually a buff.

nothing but india doesnt need it

[Goodspeed]

so you think removing their only colonial unit is the correct choice of providing unit diversity?

No need for this silly hyperbole. We didn't remove a unit, we decreased one of its stats by a minor percentage. It's also not their only colonial unit.

why not buff ww speed or smth and have 185hp uhlan.

I think we tried 185. It didn't change anything. That's a 2.5% change and iirc didn't affect any of the important fights like huss vs uhlan etc.

90% is just strictly false and you know it,

I actually don't know it. I recall many games where German semi-FF'd and made 100% uhlan while sending 9+8 and 8+7 skirms. It may not be 90% uhlan in unit count, but very often 90% in pop cost. People were even saying "don't make WW because uhlans are good enough anti-cav." Now I don't agree with that particular statement but even the fact that people were saying it means uhlans were probably very good.

ofc its gonna be a core unit considering its germans main unit lol, half the uhlan mass is from shipments anyway (i wonder what we could do to reduce the number ) its like nerfing lbs because its "90%" of brits army composition.

Yes it is like that but what's your point? Brit army is not 90% lb. Far from it. In colonial it's often mainly musk, and if it's lb then there are always pikes or huss mixed in. In fortress it's lb/goon/huss. You absolutely can't get away with having 90% lb. If Brit was making 90% lb in almost all games, we would probably nerf the unit.

About the team game thing, are we really gonna have to wait for age 4 to have acceptable uhlans again?, and thats sending it after 2 hcs and 2 factories.

I don't think the current uhlans are "unacceptable". They were very strong before, now after a 5% change they are slightly below average in fights but still excellent raiders.

[Garja]

Ulhans are still fine. At 190hp they overperform whenever it is a melee fight. In team it may be different because of pathing sucks and stuff like that. I wouldn't mind buffing xbows if the argument is "nerfing their only colonial unit". Besides dopp have been buffed already.

[lordraphael]

Dopp Uhlan is actually pretty strong. I'd say it's actually stronger now than it is with re stats

[Kaiserklein]

Dop uhlan is definitely strong in some cases but it's always the same story, against any civ that can make musks (or even goons in colo) it's a bad composition. It might work as a cheese and/or if the other guy doesn't hit and run properly, but it really shouldn't work. So basically you can do that against azzy and russia, but thats just cause the mu sucks for these civs vs ger anyway, then it might work as a dop cav timing against spain china and dutch but again I think if scouted it shouldn't work. So overall not a very useful unit composition imo.