Germans Discussion Thread

[Mitoe]

You definitely do not get "most" of your uhlans from shipments in any normal build.

[Garja]

So, would Germany be stronger with 180 hp ulhans or with 190hp ulhans but 60f 100g and 2ulhans per fortress shipment?

[Kaiserklein]

You don't send skirm upgrades in 1v1 anyway, even as France/Iro

What?

[Hazza54321]

Dont mind them, they dont know how to play vs german so they nerf their core unit

[Garja]

LUL

[Hidddy_]

These are my two cents on some german issues:
I think the problem with the uhlan nerf is the change in ratio of cost to strength. By changing their stats without tweaking their cost you are messing with this ratio. Yes RE uhlan a are a tad strong, but are they too strong for their cost? I frankly believe not. They are a high cost and high power unit by design. If their stats are to decrease, so should the cost to compensate. Or else you are clicking away resources each time you train one. You are changing the design of the game by changing the ratio of strength to cost of a unit.
Also I don't find much sense in nerfing their civ bonus of free uhlans because the civ bonus already comes with a small built in nerf. This nerf is that german age 1 shipments cost the extra 10% xp but give you 0 uhlans despite the extra xp. This means that the extra xp needed for each shipment begins to compound right off the bat, not with the first age 2 card which is when germany can start reaping their shipment bonus.

Something to consider would be changing tps to 250w to compensate for their enormous benefit

[Garja]

Ulhan HP nerf is a nerf. If you decrease cost it's not a nerf. Yes they are nerfed because with RE stats they overperform in relation to the desired performance.

[Hazza54321]

Even if you decrease cost its still a nerf lol, you effectively are nerfing the free uhlans from shipments

[Hidddy_]

Ulhan HP nerf is a nerf. If you decrease cost it's not a nerf. Yes they are nerfed because with RE stats they overperform in relation to the desired performance.

Lowering their cost to be appropriate with their stats would indeed be a nerf because in an rts game time is also a resources. And training worse units for a lowered cost, in the same time frame is still a nerf because you are using valuable training time on something that is inherently weaker.

[Hidddy_]

Even if you decrease cost its still a nerf lol, you effectively are nerfing the free uhlans from shipments

I never said it wasn't a nerf.

[Hazza54321]

Even if you decrease cost its still a nerf lol, you effectively are nerfing the free uhlans from shipments

I never said it wasn't a nerf.

I know im agreeing with you

[Hidddy_]

:biggrin:

Even if you decrease cost its still a nerf lol, you effectively are nerfing the free uhlans from shipments

I never said it wasn't a nerf.

I know im agreeing with you

[Garja]

Besides being a rather marginal nerf it would create design akwardness to keep the same train time.

Even if you decrease cost its still a nerf lol, you effectively are nerfing the free uhlans from shipments

Ok I can agree on this point. What does this change tho for you rant about ulhans weak in team?

[Kaiserklein]

Ulhan HP nerf is a nerf. If you decrease cost it's not a nerf. Yes they are nerfed because with RE stats they overperform in relation to the desired performance.

That's where there's a confusion, as always. RE uhlans don't overperform overall. They overperform in some situations (raiding, fighting melee units, sieging) and underperform in some others (snaring high attack units, tanking, catching a bunch of ranged units if the guy hits and run).

So why would you nerf the stats of the unit if it doesn't overperform overall? Because people have nightmares of fighting the RE uhlan mass, and instead of nerfing the amount of uhlans on the field, which is the real issue, we nerf their stats, which is both not logical and not efficient (because of the breaking points mentioned).

It's as dumb as saying "wow, lbs sitting between buildings are absolutely OP, we need to nerf them!", then nerfing the lbs stats, and later realizing that lbs are even more trash when fighting against heavy infantry out of base, for example. While in fact, it's just better to nerf the manor cost for example, because the real issue is how much eco brits get while being able to mass these lbs in base.

[Hidddy_]

Keeping the same train time for a slightly worse unit is part of the nerf @Garja
Which is effectively what we have now

[Goodspeed]

I don't mind a cost decrease to go with the stats nerf. I don't see the necessity right now but am open to it. However, I don't think it would make much difference and to me, currently, uhlans seem fine. @Kaiserklein You say they didn't overperform overall but they did. German armies were severely lacking in diversity and the reason was that uhlans were very strong.

[Kaiserklein]

Nope, the reason was that it's easy to make hand cav and z move it, and that people don't counter germany properly. I personally wouldn't mass uhlans in most match ups.
Ah, and people also don't hit and run properly. Obviously against a high attack/low hp unit, hit and running makes a big difference.

[Goodspeed]

I give players a little more credit than that, though I also always disagreed with the full uhlan + 7+8 skirm playstyles. It was good enough though because uhlans are/were a great unit.
If it's so easy to make hand cav and autowin, why don't other civs do it?
High attack low hp has significant advantages. The most obvious is that overkill is a big issue against such units.

[deleted_user0]

If it's so easy to make hand cav and autowin, why don't other civs do it?

you mean like china, french, otto (spahi + mams, revo), aztec (coyote) and sioux?

[Hazza54321]

Its partly due to ww being bad that uhlan were so dominant, (you wouldnt train dops especially in fortress)

[Hazza54321]

Maybe nerf uhlan cost and buff ww speed or smth

[Hazza54321]

Er by nerf i mean lower

[Kaiserklein]

I give players a little more credit than that, though I also always disagreed with the full uhlan + 7+8 skirm playstyles. It was good enough though because uhlans are/were a great unit.

I mean, I don't even understand how it was ever possible to lose against just 15 skirms and full uhlans. You can literally full goons against that, or goon + cav. This just shows how wrong people must have been playing against that, if they managed to lose lol.

If it's so easy to make hand cav and autowin, why don't other civs do it?

Well obviously, germany masses more hand cav, since they have the free uhlans. Which brings us back to the initial problem: germany gets too many uhlans on the field.
Uhlans are also less forgiving, because of their high attack. If you mismicro, you get torn apart by uhlans. But if you hit and run well, uhlans will do a poor job against ranged units, since they have low hp.
Ah and btw, I'm a player who usually makes a lot of hand cav, with most civs. It works a lot, because most people don't hit and run like crazy. Honestly, just bring a mass of huss against the standard skirm/goon player, you will probably just overwhelm him. Doesn't have to be uhlans.

High attack low hp has significant advantages. The most obvious is that overkill is a big issue against such units.

And such units overkill other units themselves, because of their own high attack.
It's anyway again all about micro. If you can split your goons uhlans are really not so scary. Of course if you overkill like crazy you'll lose.

[Kaiserklein]

Its partly due to ww being bad that uhlan were so dominant, (you wouldnt train dops especially in fortress)

Yeah that too, obviously if you don't have a real anti cav, you'll have to compensate with more of your own cav.
@Goodspeed do you think people would have gone for 90% uhlan compositions if they could train goons? If the answer is no, it shows that the problem is not really uhlans being too strong, but also the lack of other good options.

[Garja]

This has been debated quite in depth in past (at least on EP private forums it was). And the conclusion was indeed that ulhans overperform. The main argument was that, aside from fortress mass, 6 ulhans beat 5 huss and 7 ulhans clearly beat 5 huss. In general ulhans overperform in meelee. As for ranged, which is supposed to be the compensation for meelee performance ulhans still do quite well because of 30% ranged resistance. Combined with German usual mass, ulhans were too strong. Hence the HP nerf.

In hindsight, strictly for balance purposes, we could have or could test now an attack nerf instead. The problem with that is that it partially changes the nature of ulhans being raiding monsters. I suppose that if the aim is to revise the power of the unit then could open up the possibility of changing its nature. This becomes sort of a design choice tho.

Anyway, I had no asnwer so I put it again. What about 190hp 60g 100g ulhans and -1 ulhan for all fortress shipments?