Russians Discussion Thread

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Post by Hazza54321 »

garja wrote:not true, russia eco is actually very close to brit one. And the defecit of gathering is compensated by cheapness of units.

but they have to dpend slot of res on a market hd st and 2tps and up them to be on par with brits which is a huge investment and is still much slower than brits, however this is one of russias better match ups anyway, for instance vs german it is very hard to stop them from aging, and when they do it is gg especially with a tp, otto is hopeless, india isnt as bad as people say though
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Post by deleted_user0 »

garja wrote:not true, russia eco is actually very close to brit one. And the defecit of gathering is compensated by cheapness of units.
I never get this "cheapness of units" shit.

If like musket are +25% cheaper but also worse, it''s like normal musket? Right?
Cossacks are also nothing special. A little more cost efficient than hussars but not much...
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Post by momuuu »

somppukunkku wrote:
garja wrote:not true, russia eco is actually very close to brit one. And the defecit of gathering is compensated by cheapness of units.
I never get this "cheapness of units" shit.

If like musket are +25% cheaper but also worse, its like normal musket? Right?
Cossacks are also nothing special. A little more cost efficient than hussars but not much...
Euhm, arent that musk 25% cheaper but only 20% worse or sth like that?
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Post by Garja »

jerom wrote:So, how would you guys rate all of the match ups that involve russia? Similair to the germany topic, I think that is a fair thing to discuss to move forward in our evaluation. If you conclude that they lose a terrible lot of match ups, what is the main cause for those match ups being hard to win?
MUs they win comfortably:
- spain
- japan

MUs that they can win or lose:
- french
- dutch
- ports
- brits
- sioux
- iro
- china

MUs that they should lose:
- india
- otto (on TP only)
- aztecs (not even sure)
- germans (mostly due to germans semi being too good of a strat)
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Post by deleted_user0 »

jerom wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:I never get this "cheapness of units" shit.

If like musket are +25% cheaper but also worse, its like normal musket? Right?
Cossacks are also nothing special. A little more cost efficient than hussars but not much...
Euhm, arent that musk 25% cheaper but only 20% worse or sth like that?
+5% better, whatever.
Who cares when your early eco sux harder than Prince does my cock.
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Post by Hazza54321 »

jerom wrote:So, how would you guys rate all of the match ups that involve russia? Similair to the germany topic, I think that is a fair thing to discuss to move forward in our evaluation. If you conclude that they lose a terrible lot of match ups, what is the main cause for those match ups being hard to win?

they lose a fair amount of match ups quite hard (ger,otto,iro, sioux, french, india, a walled china, ports on fp, dutch on fp), match ups such as spain, brits, aztec, unwalled china, japan they do ok and its relatively fair
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Post by Garja »

somppukunkku wrote:
garja wrote:not true, russia eco is actually very close to brit one. And the defecit of gathering is compensated by cheapness of units.
I never get this "cheapness of units" shit.

If like musket are +25% cheaper but also worse, its like normal musket? Right?
Cossacks are also nothing special. A little more cost efficient than hussars but not much...

Russia units tend to be cost efficient in the sense that they cost X less but are only Y worse. I dont think the defecit in strenght its crystal clear, as it depends on many factors. For example strelets shoot instantly and dont miss like xbows and also have 30% and 4.5 speed that are stats usually overlooked.
Cossacks are better than huss hands down. They get one extra card and also 30% rr. In addition to that Russia can generally send AA and get another 10% hp up. They tend to have diminishing returns as 1 coss die faster than 1 huss but they can also perform the same task of huss (raiding) for a cheaper cost.
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Post by momuuu »

garja wrote:
jerom wrote:So, how would you guys rate all of the match ups that involve russia? Similair to the germany topic, I think that is a fair thing to discuss to move forward in our evaluation. If you conclude that they lose a terrible lot of match ups, what is the main cause for those match ups being hard to win?
MUs they win comfortably:
- spain
- japan

MUs that they can win or lose:
- french
- dutch
- ports
- brits
- sioux
- iro
- china

MUs that they should lose:
- india
- otto (on TP only)
- aztecs (not even sure)
- germans (mostly due to germans semi being too good of a strat)

Feels about right. Though I am not sure how easily they beat Japan, and how close Dutch and ports are. Also honestly no clue about iro.

hazza54321 wrote:
jerom wrote:So, how would you guys rate all of the match ups that involve russia? Similair to the germany topic, I think that is a fair thing to discuss to move forward in our evaluation. If you conclude that they lose a terrible lot of match ups, what is the main cause for those match ups being hard to win?
they lose a fair amount of match ups quite hard (ger,otto,iro, sioux, french, india, a walled china, ports on fp, dutch on fp), match ups such as spain, brits, aztec, unwalled china, japan they do ok and its relatively fair
iro, sioux and otto are worse on ep though, theyd probably still lose vs otto I guess, I dont agree on france though, feel that mu is very close.

So its kinda close to being slightly weak, depending on how well they actually do vs Dutch/Ports/China/Sioux/France. Itd be interesting if you guys would shortly discuss some of these match ups.
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Post by deleted_user0 »

garja wrote:
jerom wrote:So, how would you guys rate all of the match ups that involve russia? Similair to the germany topic, I think that is a fair thing to discuss to move forward in our evaluation. If you conclude that they lose a terrible lot of match ups, what is the main cause for those match ups being hard to win?
MUs they win comfortably:
- spain
- japan
Are you fucking kidding me? How could you possibly win japa? They can wall and ship colonialmilitia shit which 1 hits all your infantry.
In age 3 japan army is like 9000% better.

I would also like to know how to beat a good spain ff comfortably. You have to take 2 canns down colonial which is pretty hard when theres tons of shit. Also lancers just pwn russia.

Fair MUs:
-Porto BEFORE FP. Now porto even better.
-Dutch, same as porto.
-Brit
-Spain

Getting fucking rekt MUs:
Everything else
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Post by deleted_user0 »

meh I go sleep
buff russia or putin gonna cut ur balls
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Post by Hazza54321 »

jerom wrote:
garja wrote:MUs they win comfortably:
- spain
- japan

MUs that they can win or lose:
- french
- dutch
- ports
- brits
- sioux
- iro
- china

MUs that they should lose:
- india
- otto (on TP only)
- aztecs (not even sure)
- germans (mostly due to germans semi being too good of a strat)

Feels about right. Though I am not sure how easily they beat Japan, and how close Dutch and ports are. Also honestly no clue about iro.

hazza54321 wrote: they lose a fair amount of match ups quite hard (ger,otto,iro, sioux, french, india, a walled china, ports on fp, dutch on fp), match ups such as spain, brits, aztec, unwalled china, japan they do ok and its relatively fair
iro, sioux and otto are worse on ep though, theyd probably still lose vs otto I guess, I dont agree on france though, feel that mu is very close.?

So its kinda close to being slightly weak, depending on how well they actually do vs Dutch/Ports/China/Sioux/France. Itd be interesting if you guys would shortly discuss some of these match ups.?

they still lose to sioux, their military is just too strong and russias is weak
Iro russia is closer on fp maybe 55-45 because of their insane inf ups in age 2, werid how people dont complain about conservative tactics but they do about boyars
Dutch vs russia vs fair on re but due to their insane eco and xp from banks they can go age 3 relatively easily maybe some skirm and walls needed but then 6banks in fortess is so good
Ports is fair maybe not sure
France is very hard for russia, you have to play exceptionally well to win
China their ff is quick and strong and with 8 arq age up china are fine
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Post by Garja »

somppukunkku wrote:
garja wrote:MUs they win comfortably:
- spain
- japan
Are you fucking kidding me? How could you possibly win japa? They can wall and ship colonialmilitia shit which 1 hits all your infantry.
In age 3 japan army is like 9000% better.

I would also like to know how to beat a good spain ff comfortably. You have to take 2 canns down colonial which is pretty hard when theres tons of shit. Also lancers just pwn russia.

Fair MUs:
-Porto BEFORE FP. Now porto even better.
-Dutch, same as porto.
-Brit
-Spain

Getting fucking rekt MUs:
Everything else

Japan: usual waym 5 coss first then full strelets and cossacks. If he starts stable then you make musks. Just camp your units under his tc and idle the vills it damages him and you have a better follow up. If he walls just siege the walls or kill shrines instead. Game doesnt even go to age3. If he tries to age up you just march in his base with 60 units and siege the tc down.

Spain: same story, except you make musks and can even skip 5 coss first and send like 700w or another crate card. Just make 50 musks and stagger mode the cannons with a coss flank. There is simply no way spain gets enough stuff to beat 50 musks and 10 cossack with 10 musks and 5 coss reinforcements.
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Post by momuuu »

I guess I could comment on Dutch vs russia a bit. Think its a close mu on re, would feel like it might be slightly russia favored but I am not quite sure. That fortress falc timing you did vs me once seemed strong. I think russia might be favored in that it is the civ determinimg the tempo, and thus might take some random wins because dutch misreads them.

On the patch, the increased bank limit is not relevant in the mu. I think going 4 banks against russia is already greedy. The increased bank xp is pretty relevant though, it makes their builds just slightly smoother. I think that means dutch could barely edge out russia, but I am not sure about that at all.
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Post by Hazza54321 »

jerom wrote:I guess I could comment on Dutch vs russia a bit. Think its a close mu on re, would feel like it might be slightly russia favored but I am not quite sure. That fortress falc timing you did vs me once seemed strong. I think russia might be favored in that it is the civ determinimg the tempo, and thus might take some random wins because dutch misreads them.

On the patch, the increased bank limit is not relevant in the mu. I think going 4 banks against russia is already greedy. The increased bank xp is pretty relevant though, it makes their builds just slightly smoother. I think that means dutch could barely edge out russia, but I am not sure about that at all.

perhaps but the xp makes you ff faster, giving you more time to stablise
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Post by momuuu »

hazza54321 wrote:
jerom wrote:I guess I could comment on Dutch vs russia a bit. Think its a close mu on re, would feel like it might be slightly russia favored but I am not quite sure. That fortress falc timing you did vs me once seemed strong. I think russia might be favored in that it is the civ determinimg the tempo, and thus might take some random wins because dutch misreads them.

On the patch, the increased bank limit is not relevant in the mu. I think going 4 banks against russia is already greedy. The increased bank xp is pretty relevant though, it makes their builds just slightly smoother. I think that means dutch could barely edge out russia, but I am not sure about that at all.
perhaps but the xp makes you ff faster, giving you more time to stablise

barely makes you ff faster. If at all.
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Post by gibson »

garja wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:Are you fucking kidding me? How could you possibly win japa? They can wall and ship colonialmilitia shit which 1 hits all your infantry.
In age 3 japan army is like 9000% better.

I would also like to know how to beat a good spain ff comfortably. You have to take 2 canns down colonial which is pretty hard when theres tons of shit. Also lancers just pwn russia.

Fair MUs:
-Porto BEFORE FP. Now porto even better.
-Dutch, same as porto.
-Brit
-Spain

Getting fucking rekt MUs:
Everything else

Japan: usual waym 5 coss first then full strelets and cossacks. If he starts stable then you make musks. Just camp your units under his tc and idle the vills it damages him and you have a better follow up. If he walls just siege the walls or kill shrines instead. Game doesnt even go to age3. If he tries to age up you just march in his base with 60 units and siege the tc down.

Spain: same story, except you make musks and can even skip 5 coss first and send like 700w or another crate card. Just make 50 musks and stagger mode the cannons with a coss flank. There is simply no way spain gets enough stuff to beat 50 musks and 10 cossack with 10 musks and 5 coss reinforcements.

Lol I would love to see you get 50 musks and 10 cossack with 10 musk and 5 cossack coming when spain pushes with 2 cannons @ the latest 8:20. Spain rekts russia actually
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Post by Garja »

Spain doesn't beat Russia on TAD, I actually know that MU pretty well. You can get those amount of units with any civ actually and that same way in fact works pretty much with any civ. The difference with Brits, however is that Russia can easily respam units because they are cheap, while if Brits lose one fight then they might be in trouble.
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Post by Hazza54321 »

gibson wrote:
garja wrote:Japan: usual waym 5 coss first then full strelets and cossacks. If he starts stable then you make musks. Just camp your units under his tc and idle the vills it damages him and you have a better follow up. If he walls just siege the walls or kill shrines instead. Game doesnt even go to age3. If he tries to age up you just march in his base with 60 units and siege the tc down.

Spain: same story, except you make musks and can even skip 5 coss first and send like 700w or another crate card. Just make 50 musks and stagger mode the cannons with a coss flank. There is simply no way spain gets enough stuff to beat 50 musks and 10 cossack with 10 musks and 5 coss reinforcements.

Lol I would love to see you get 50 musks and 10 cossack with 10 musk and 5 cossack coming when spain pushes with 2 cannons @ the latest 8:20. ?Spain rekts russia actually

ifs about 40 musk 10 coss i think with 700w 700g 700f 5 coss or stm like that
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Post by gibson »

hazza54321 wrote:
gibson wrote:Lol I would love to see you get 50 musks and 10 cossack with 10 musk and 5 cossack coming when spain pushes with 2 cannons @ the latest 8:20. Spain rekts russia actually
ifs about 40 musk 10 coss i think with 700w 700g 700f 5 coss or stm like that
Even if you do get those numbers which Im pretty sure is closer to 30 musks you still loose to 2 falcs unless the spain player makes a huge micro error.....
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Post by Garja »

no you don't and that's what I'm trying to tell you. Just staggered mode your musks and charge in.
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Post by Jaeger »

somppukunkku wrote:
garja wrote:MUs they win comfortably:
- spain
- japan
Are you fucking kidding me? How could you possibly win japa? They can wall and ship colonialmilitia shit which 1 hits all your infantry.
In age 3 japan army is like 9000% better.

I would also like to know how to beat a good spain ff comfortably. You have to take 2 canns down colonial which is pretty hard when theres tons of shit. Also lancers just pwn russia.

Fair MUs:
-Porto BEFORE FP. Now porto even better.
-Dutch, same as porto.
-Brit
-Spain

Getting fucking rekt MUs:
Everything else

Wtf do you do vs spain that doesnt get completely annihilated?
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Post by Jaeger »

garja wrote:
somppukunkku wrote:Are you fucking kidding me? How could you possibly win japa? They can wall and ship colonialmilitia shit which 1 hits all your infantry.
In age 3 japan army is like 9000% better.

I would also like to know how to beat a good spain ff comfortably. You have to take 2 canns down colonial which is pretty hard when theres tons of shit. Also lancers just pwn russia.

Fair MUs:
-Porto BEFORE FP. Now porto even better.
-Dutch, same as porto.
-Brit
-Spain

Getting fucking rekt MUs:
Everything else

Japan: usual waym 5 coss first then full strelets and cossacks. If he starts stable then you make musks. Just camp your units under his tc and idle the vills it damages him and you have a better follow up. If he walls just siege the walls or kill shrines instead. Game doesnt even go to age3. If he tries to age up you just march in his base with 60 units and siege the tc down.

Spain: same story, except you make musks and can even skip 5 coss first and send like 700w or another crate card. Just make 50 musks and stagger mode the cannons with a coss flank. There is simply no way spain gets enough stuff to beat 50 musks and 10 cossack with 10 musks and 5 coss reinforcements.

Cossack flank to kill cannons? Doesnt that rely on spain mismcroing and not blocking the cav with their 30 anticav lol?
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Post by Kaiserklein »

ovi12 wrote:
garja wrote:Japan: usual waym 5 coss first then full strelets and cossacks. If he starts stable then you make musks. Just camp your units under his tc and idle the vills it damages him and you have a better follow up. If he walls just siege the walls or kill shrines instead. Game doesnt even go to age3. If he tries to age up you just march in his base with 60 units and siege the tc down.

Spain: same story, except you make musks and can even skip 5 coss first and send like 700w or another crate card. Just make 50 musks and stagger mode the cannons with a coss flank. There is simply no way spain gets enough stuff to beat 50 musks and 10 cossack with 10 musks and 5 coss reinforcements.

Cossack flank to kill cannons? Doesnt that rely on spain mismcroing and not blocking the cav with their 30 anticav lol?
Its not that easy to cover falcs when cav comes from 2 sides. Because of pathing issues, its partly luck that will decide if the cav can or not reach the falcs. You really need a big amount of anti cav to be sure you cover your falcs properly. As it was about a 8-8:30 timing from spain, I doubt it can have enough anti cav at that time to completely cover the falcs. Also dont forget that musks can do decent vs falcs when you outmass
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Post by lukas2223 »

I see some retards lurking around these parts. Russia is the worst civ in this new patch and people are wanting to NERF some aspects of it? If anything it needs some huge buffs and NOW.

Sincerely,

Any decent Russian player
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Post by Jaeger »

kaiserklein wrote:
ovi12 wrote:Cossack flank to kill cannons? Doesnt that rely on spain mismcroing and not blocking the cav with their 30 anticav lol?
Its not that easy to cover falcs when cav comes from 2 sides. Because of pathing issues, its partly luck that will decide if the cav can or not reach the falcs. You really need a big amount of anti cav to be sure you cover your falcs properly. As it was about a 8-8:30 timing from spain, I doubt it can have enough anti cav at that time to completely cover the falcs. Also dont forget that musks can do decent vs falcs when you outmass
Naw pushing that early vs anything colonial will mean you lose. You need to wait for 12 pike to push. And you can just split your anticav in 2 and micro the ones from behind to the sides, and the cav should never be able to touch the cannons. You can also block the cav from reaching the cannons with your skirms. Also when i know my opponent is going full colonial i dont even commit until i have 4 lancers, which can also punish musks just walking foreard to falconets.
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