Russians Discussion Thread

User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

_H2O wrote:It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of results I suppose. I think I don't under rate Russian muskets.

I think you do, they are not bad imo. Like I know that vs aztecs you wouldn't even train 1 musk, that's so wrong honestly, I'd either musk semi and then musk/falc/coss in age 3 or musk/coss in colo.

I also know I over stated lately that I think other muskets are weaker. I say that because the average player just thinks they are strictly better than say crossbows.

I think that in a perfect colo composition you need some bows but mainly muskets, going bow/cav isn't a viable option imo.

I mean I don't like Russia as they are a pretty easy civ, so everyone rating them so highly is fine by me. Tournament results kinda show they don't win age 2 or age 3.
Nobody plays Russia so that's obvious, but yeah they were pretty bad before the buff, now they're decent imo.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:There aren't many decent Russian players tho, if any at all.

Only mongo and me.
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by _H2O »

Agree bow hussar is not the best by a long shot. It's particularly strong in early colonial when military pops are lower than 20 as the bow hussar builds I was doing get cav sooner than traditional musk builds. It gets hard countered by colonial musk Huss if you don't mix your own. The first two points you made are correct about colonial compositions.

Vs Aztec I wouldn't play colonial or make muskets. But I also think Aztec is a lot stronger than people think which is why I just mirror them rather than take the bad matchup. I could even be wrong about that but since my euro match ups are so strong I would rather just take Aztec off the table with a mirror.

You can't really judge what I think is good from my streams or non tournament matches. I play way greedier on stream than I do in tournaments because it's great practice and the games don't matter. In the same way I was going a lot of bow huss, but I don't think there's a single tournament game of me doing that :D. Basically just saying my oppinion on muskets is pretty standard with the exception of that small window to abuse crossbows which is pretty important in the semi ff stagecoach meta.

The Russia buff is 150 food by 10 minutes. Russia is no different this patch.
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

_H2O wrote:To go on topic. I would love to see Russia with cav archers that have no load animation.

It's one of those intangibles that matters a lot and would make Russia stronger at high level while not making them super strong at lower levels. They already are easy to play at those levels.
While I'm – as always – open to testing most anything, I have three concerns:

1. It might not be modifiable.
2. The unit might become too powerful if it is.
3. It might not help the civilization all that much. As Russians, don't you normally struggle before Fortress Age has been established?

I'm pleasantly surprised to see your posting again, by the way!
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by _H2O »

1. It can be done we have the tech talent I think.
2. It would make the unit stronger for sure and would need a corresponding rof nerf.
3. Russia has the ability to semi now. They can do stagecoach builds, have ATP. Also their rax is 50 wood tower built in so they can get up. The problem is when you get up you have no stabalizing units (goons vs musk Huss for example) and you don't get anything good except falcs and Manchu.

Thanks! It's fun to talk about ideas for the game even if I am not playing anymore.
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

Reload animation sucks but there are plenty of units with this problem. I guess war wagons have reload animation before the first shoot too. Grenadiers are useless cause of their animation.
And im sure there are more these type of units.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

russia buff is good, it's not really the food saved but the snowball effect of early efficiency
Image Image Image
Germany lordraphael
Pro Player
EWTNWC LAN SilverAdvanced Division WinnerDonator 01
Posts: 2549
Joined: Jun 28, 2015

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by lordraphael »

_H2O wrote:1. It can be done we have the tech talent I think.
2. It would make the unit stronger for sure and would need a corresponding rof nerf.
3. Russia has the ability to semi now. They can do stagecoach builds, have ATP. Also their rax is 50 wood tower built in so they can get up. The problem is when you get up you have no stabalizing units (goons vs musk Huss for example) and you don't get anything good except falcs and Manchu.

Thanks! It's fun to talk about ideas for the game even if I am not playing anymore.

but wouldnt that just standardize the unit/ the game sth you didint wanna do iirc.
I think CA are fine. Imo they are even better in some units compositions ( lb /CA would be insane for example)
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by _H2O »

lordraphael wrote:
_H2O wrote:1. It can be done we have the tech talent I think.
2. It would make the unit stronger for sure and would need a corresponding rof nerf.
3. Russia has the ability to semi now. They can do stagecoach builds, have ATP. Also their rax is 50 wood tower built in so they can get up. The problem is when you get up you have no stabalizing units (goons vs musk Huss for example) and you don't get anything good except falcs and Manchu.

Thanks! It's fun to talk about ideas for the game even if I am not playing anymore.

but wouldnt that just standardize the unit/ the game sth you didint wanna do iirc.
I think CA are fine. Imo they are even better in some units compositions ( lb /CA would be insane for example)


I hear what you are saying and it would standardize the unit which I do prefer to avoid.

Any ideas how to more simply fix Russia's anti cav problem? I think it's just a little to bad. German suffer from a similar problem but for Russia it seems to be insurmountable.
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

I think war wagon worse than cav archers. But maybe its ok with a simple rotation speed buff. I guess its a simpli numeric value setting. Easy to change. Animation programming much more complicated.
User avatar
Switzerland _venox_
Howdah
Posts: 1723
Joined: Mar 27, 2015
ESO: _Venox_
Location: Switzerland

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by _venox_ »

Dsy wrote:Reload animation sucks but there are plenty of units with this problem. I guess war wagons have reload animation before the first shoot too. Grenadiers are useless cause of their animation.
And im sure there are more these type of units.

lol imagine grenadiers without their animation, they just walk forward, then BOOM and walk back Horatio style with glasses and dead body parts flying around. They could even hit and run!

I know as Russia myself I encounter trouble against heavy cavalry use (just because they soak up so much damage) but other nations don't have that problem, like France for example and I wonder why is that? If you compare Russia to France both have musketeers, but the Russian ones cost less and are worse. I don't think that only this small difference can have such a big impact and make Russia weak to cavalry. I mean, France doesn't have to use any pikemen but musketeers to kill cavalry, so why are Russian musketeers worse at that?
The only difference really is "resource density" in the musketeer comparison. With a big amount of units only a set amount of Russian musketeers get to inflict damage, so the Army you efficiently use at inflicting damage is worth less resource wise. :/
Don't let the things you can't change dictate your life.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

_H2O wrote:
lordraphael wrote:
_H2O wrote:1. It can be done we have the tech talent I think.
2. It would make the unit stronger for sure and would need a corresponding rof nerf.
3. Russia has the ability to semi now. They can do stagecoach builds, have ATP. Also their rax is 50 wood tower built in so they can get up. The problem is when you get up you have no stabalizing units (goons vs musk Huss for example) and you don't get anything good except falcs and Manchu.

Thanks! It's fun to talk about ideas for the game even if I am not playing anymore.

but wouldnt that just standardize the unit/ the game sth you didint wanna do iirc.
I think CA are fine. Imo they are even better in some units compositions ( lb /CA would be insane for example)


I hear what you are saying and it would standardize the unit which I do prefer to avoid.

Any ideas how to more simply fix Russia's anti cav problem? I think it's just a little to bad. German suffer from a similar problem but for Russia it seems to be insurmountable.

I think that you really underestimate the musk power, but well, you'd say that I overrate it :P
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by _H2O »

I guess I was in your position for the past 5 years. But I learned how strong Xbow Huss is early colonial in the current meta. Most people let muskets go hand attack on their cav way more than they need to. Large numbers you can't really out micro it though. Overall except for early colonial against the slow to mix cav semi builds muskets are solid. In the same way that mixing 20 Xbow into your France colonial army in the mirror is good because it gives you more range on your back line.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

_H2O wrote:I guess I was in your position for the past 5 years. But I learned how strong Xbow Huss is early colonial in the current meta. Most people let muskets go hand attack on their cav way more than they need to. Large numbers you can't really out micro it though. Overall except for early colonial against the slow to mix cav semi builds muskets are solid. In the same way that mixing 20 Xbow into your France colonial army in the mirror is good because it gives you more range on your back line.

It's good to add bows to your colo composition for sure but I'd always start musk/huss and then add bows, not the other way :P
It's safer and you are more mobile, which means that you can deal more damages.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

W/e way you reach the 3 unit combo, Russia one is going to be better than most civs. Aside from specific timings when Russia lacks a certain unit or enough mass in general, you're not going to beat it in colonial with let's say French or Spain.
Image Image Image
User avatar
United States of America _H2O
ESOC Business Team
Donator 06
Posts: 3409
Joined: Aug 20, 2016
ESO: _H2O

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by _H2O »

Your wrong about that imo. They only won colonial on RE because the resource distribution sucked so bad you couldn't break the contain. I think they also win because people are lazy in fights and if you are lazy the giant ball of muskets kinda owns you.
User avatar
Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 8219
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: [VOC] Bram
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Atomiswave wrote:Nobody mentioned that russian age 3 unit shipments are not that good. They deserve a buff.

What are you talking about? They received 3 more strelets. Their fortress shipments are absolutely fine now. Thanks patch team!
User avatar
Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 794
Joined: Dec 27, 2015

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:Nobody mentioned that russian age 3 unit shipments are not that good. They deserve a buff.

What are you talking about? They received 3 more strelets. Their fortress shipments are absolutely fine now. Thanks patch team!


We want 6-7 coss in age 3 for ruskies.
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Jaeger »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:Nobody mentioned that russian age 3 unit shipments are not that good. They deserve a buff.

What are you talking about? They received 3 more strelets. Their fortress shipments are absolutely fine now. Thanks patch team!

Oh god not that. Would you have rather had them leave it the same? There aren't many people to playtest anything so small changes are good.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
User avatar
Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 8219
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: [VOC] Bram
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

ovi12 wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:Nobody mentioned that russian age 3 unit shipments are not that good. They deserve a buff.

What are you talking about? They received 3 more strelets. Their fortress shipments are absolutely fine now. Thanks patch team!
There aren't many people to playtest anything so small changes are good.

Actually there's an entire team dedicated to playtesting.
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

_H2O wrote:Your wrong about that imo. They only won colonial on RE because the resource distribution sucked so bad you couldn't break the contain. I think they also win because people are lazy in fights and if you are lazy the giant ball of muskets kinda owns you.

The contain might be broken because of a timing that kills the fb. That's possible. I wonder then what happens if Russia just places the rax just outside of his base.
As for the micro thing I think you got that wrong. Given optimal compositions and even numbers by both sides I don't see how you're supposed to beat musk+strel+coss with musk+huss+xbows.
The resource thing is relevant but not necessarily to the point that with fair resources Russia loses. The moment when having cheaper units becomes a clear advantage over better but more expensive gets simply delayed.
Image Image Image
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Jaeger »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
ovi12 wrote:
Show hidden quotes
There aren't many people to playtest anything so small changes are good.

Actually there's an entire team dedicated to playtesting.


Yes but some of them have said publicly that they don't playtest because they don't like the changes, others are very rarely online. People part of ESOC have complained also that there is not enough playtesting. From the outside at least it looks like there's a problem
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user »

Should probably do something to nerf russia 5 blockhouse FI
User avatar
Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 8219
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: [VOC] Bram
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

ovi12 wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Actually there's an entire team dedicated to playtesting.


Yes but some of them have said publicly that they don't playtest because they don't like the change

Link? That sounds extremely immature and those people should be removed from the team as soon as possible.
User avatar
No Flag Jaeger
Jaeger
Posts: 4492
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Jaeger »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
ovi12 wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Yes but some of them have said publicly that they don't playtest because they don't like the change

Link? That sounds extremely immature and those people should be removed from the team as soon as possible.

I dont remember the threads tgey were in but i remember at least one name that i can PM you, and ill try to find a thread of an esoc member complaining of not enough playtesting
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV