Russians Discussion Thread

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Italy Garja
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Meh.
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Dsy wrote:But dutch change actually can be effective: Bank cost decreased from 350f, 350w to 350f, 300w. Bounties increased from 110xp to 130xp ("build") and 220xp to 260xp ("kill").

German age 2 actually changed much. Age 3 has no really effect.

Spain:"Unction" home-city shipment damage-aura effect decreased from 5% to 4% per Missionary (i.e. maximum potential damage increase reduced from ~63% to ~48%). Missionary cost decreased from 100w, 100c to 50w, 50c:
I guess this feature cant be used in competitve games, but dont know i dont see any players who could use it.

Considering how bad dutch was, I doubt this will make dutch op, and indeed it didn't.
German was changed because they were too strong, now if they want to age 3, it's hard, but well, if they reach the 3rd age, they have their crazy mass so it's fair, also the goon nerf helps germany a lot.
If unction isn't used, it means that it isn't op, so no real problem.
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:Meh.

Tell me that it isn't true :P
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

I agree german change was necessary.
But dutch can be underrated. Its not that weak. I lost hardly with it only vs azzi or german even on RE. And now its got a lot of buffs. German nerfed in age2.
And if unction isnt used it shouldnt be changed i guess.

So yeah. I wanna see some dutch games. And spain cause if unction buff isnt used then it should be changed back i guess. 50w/50c 300hp priests hurt my eyes lol...
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Dsy wrote:I agree german change was necessary.
But dutch can be underrated. Its not that weak. I lost hardly with it only vs azzi or german even on RE. And now its got a lot of buffs. German nerfed in age2.
And if unction isnt used it shouldnt be changed i guess.

Honestly, there wasn't a single MU they could win at the same skill level.

So yeah. I wanna see some dutch games. And spain cause if unction buff isnt used then it should be changed back i guess. 50w/50c 300hp priests hurt my eyes lol...
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

Even if it wasnt we dont see how it goes now. I found 1 game posted by Jerom vs alligator. Will check but its just 1 game.
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Dsy wrote:Even if it wasnt we dont see how it goes now. I found 1 game posted by Jerom vs alligator. Will check but its just 1 game.

Yep, feel free to provide more recs!
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Dsy wrote:Even if it wasnt we dont see how it goes now. I found 1 game posted by Jerom vs alligator. Will check but its just 1 game.

Yep, feel free to provide more recs!


Well, you too! People want to watch more ur recs than mine i guess. XD
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

since when diarouga good russia player he nub
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

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Post by zoom »

oxaloacetate wrote:
zoom wrote:Quite frankly, I don't think Garja can agree with anyone about balance.
:chinese:


It is not my intention to side against anyone or use ad hominem-arguments, as is the standard way of doing business here at ESOC, sadly.

Having said that, from a leadership perspective, the composition of the team is really odd. The criteria is (or seems to me to be) the best players available, which is not how the business is conducted; even if it is, it is only because of the almost forced exodus of other members. If the team were suppose to be based on merit, then the team should be made up of H2O on its own (and it would probably be a superior option to todays patch team because of genuine continuity in the changes made).

The reason I highlight this is because as long as the patch team does not function, whether it be a public or private endeavour, the EP will continue to be a failure to 90 percent of ESOC, which is sad. Why would someone put their efforts into something which is fundamentally doomed to fail?

Irrational epenis es nobueno penis.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:It's just that garja and I can't agree about balance, so how could we change the design of the game?


This is not a problem of not you two not being able to agree with each other, but the fact that both of you act like pre-schoolers, which is surprising given the age and intellectual ability of both of you.
First of all, in case you aren't already aware, my remark is made in all good, humorous spirit, and I completely agree with you that there's too much negativity and respectlessness about.

While your reasoning is ostensibly sound, and I can see how the team's composition superficially strikes you in such a way, it really isn't the case. With a few arbitrary exceptions where someone has added a person to the team entirely on their own behalf, things have actually come together rather organically. If there were any sort of merited criterium, it is the ability to contribute to the end-development of the patch. After all, without reasonably constructive behaviour as well as the power and will to compromise, the skill of an individual is no means to the ends of a group. In addition to your apparent idea of an "almost forced exodus of other members," these largely erroneous assumptions show that you are, in turn largely oblivious of the development of the team.

All things considered, a great deal of the criticism directed towards the patch in general and the project lead Goodspeed in particular, stems from that very same problem as described above – a lack of compromise and constructivity coupled with an abundance of confirmation bias. I'm sure you've noticed these issues yourself.
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Also, to quote myself:

"A lot of users seem not to understand that the possibility for play-testing is currently very limited in this game. Accordingly, they also seem not to understand that it is precisely because of this fact that the EP on the whole desires changes no larger than they need to be in order to attain reasonable balance. Please be advised that tournaments are a major vehicle of play-testing, and that the patch is a work in progress. No one at all minds reasonable criticism of the EP, of which there is certainly some to be had."
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by oxaloacetate »

zoom wrote:I can see how the team's composition superficially strikes you in such a way, it really isn't the case. With a few arbitrary exceptions where someone has added a person to the team entirely on their own behalf, things have actually come together rather organically. If there were any sort of merited criterium, it is the ability to contribute to the end-development of the patch.


If the criterium was the ability to contribute to the end-development of the patch, perhaps it is time for someone to reconsider their position in order to improve the teams performance?


zoom wrote:After all, without reasonably constructive behaviour as well as the power and will to compromise, the skill of an individual is no means to the ends of a group.


Agree, which is why the composition seems odd. There are obviously issues of this sort.

zoom wrote:In addition to your apparent idea of an "almost forced exodus of other members," these largely erroneous assumptions show that you are, in turn largely oblivious of the development of the team.


I may very well be in the dark and ill-informed, but that's sort of the point. This is how the patch team seems to operate for large parts of the target audience. Through exclusion of the major parts of the community. This is probably the biggest part of why I have neglected the EP myself (even though I have not played a lot of AoE in general the last year, so this is not a prime example, but I fear, for the success of the patch, these feelings are shared by many of the regular forum users).

zoom wrote:All things considered, a great deal of the criticism directed towards the patch in general and the project lead Goodspeed in particular, stems from that very same problem as described above – a lack of compromise and constructivity coupled with an abundance of confirmation bias. I'm sure you've noticed these issues yourself.


My impression is that most of the community derived criticism does not stem from an actual disagreeance with the balance changes, but rather from the fact that people feel excluded from an inner-circle.


I will leave it with this. I do not mean to give the impression that I am against the patch team or their effort, or that I necessarily think things needs to change. It all depends on what's the target of the patch and what you wish to achieve with these balance patches. If you want generalized adoption, my view is that you are doing it wrong, but I may be wrong and it may be too late regardless.
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by _venox_ »

I think I've never seen such a well behaved online discussion! Bravo Zoom and Oxaloacetate! c:
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Papist »

Blockhouse hp needs to be buffed. It is currently way too easy to break Russia's contain game in colonial. This change would go way further than cutting villager cost ever would.
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

_venox_ wrote:I think I've never seen such a well behaved online discussion! Bravo Zoom and Oxaloacetate! c:
my theory is that oxaloacetate is another one of zois accounts. No way a discussion like that could happen on this forum......
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Papist wrote:Blockhouse hp needs to be buffed. It is currently way too easy to break Russia's contain game in colonial. This change would go way further than cutting villager cost ever would.

Russia are too strong atm
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

Hazza54321 wrote:
Papist wrote:Blockhouse hp needs to be buffed. It is currently way too easy to break Russia's contain game in colonial. This change would go way further than cutting villager cost ever would.

Russia are too strong atm

I think he is for removing/changing vill cost and instead buffing bh HP and a few other things. Personally, I dont really like this, rather I would just keep russia's current changes, but undo all of the nerfs to Germans and French.
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

Hazza54321 wrote:
Papist wrote:Blockhouse hp needs to be buffed. It is currently way too easy to break Russia's contain game in colonial. This change would go way further than cutting villager cost ever would.

Russia are too strong atm
rofl
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

gibson wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:
Papist wrote:Blockhouse hp needs to be buffed. It is currently way too easy to break Russia's contain game in colonial. This change would go way further than cutting villager cost ever would.

Russia are too strong atm
rofl

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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by pecelot »

Papist wrote:Blockhouse hp needs to be buffed. It is currently way too easy to break Russia's contain game in colonial. This change would go way further than cutting villager cost ever would.

yeah BH my hunts on Cascade with 4k-HP buildings :|
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Papist »

Hazza54321 wrote:
Papist wrote:Blockhouse hp needs to be buffed. It is currently way too easy to break Russia's contain game in colonial. This change would go way further than cutting villager cost ever would.

Russia are too strong atm


They aren't that much different lol. France and Germany just got nerfed into the ground.
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

But France is not much different either.

Could it be that the patch is pretty balanced? No, I'm going crazy, that cannot be possible. What will I blame when I lose then. By the Garja mart, what have you done!?
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by lordraphael »

Papist wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:
Papist wrote:Blockhouse hp needs to be buffed. It is currently way too easy to break Russia's contain game in colonial. This change would go way further than cutting villager cost ever would.

Russia are too strong atm


They aren't that much different lol. France and Germany just got nerfed into the ground.

nerfed into the ground ? Its talk like this that brought the bad reputation upon the EP. French is still tier 1/2 civ. It just so happens that the -100 food hurt them alot vs russia. It shifted from being fre favoured to equal maybe even slightly russia favoured. Other than that they still perform almost exactly the same as they used to do. Germany is another case. they went like 1.5 tiers down which is a lot. On the other hand they seem a lot weaker than they actually are just because they used to be top tier.
In any case. I dont like to bring the "im know it better cause im a better player" argument. But in that instance i think i have to. I hate it when players below capt ( idk what rank you are actually, but im almost certain it is not above 25) speak as if they know it all. You dont. French is fine for sure and concerning germany the tourney will tell in what state they are. They are certainly no trash tier but also not top tier anymore. As balance gets better civ tiers are getting closer and closer. And thats currently the case. But instead of realising this far to many players blame every loss on balance and jump to conclusions without evidence. To say it with sudmakmak : "Using emotions instead of logic."
Balance is progressing. Im 100 % certain that the next patch will bring great improvements as the current problems become more obvious the more games are played. Also the tourney will help greatly to give input.
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

lordraphael wrote:
Papist wrote:
Show hidden quotes


They aren't that much different lol. France and Germany just got nerfed into the ground.

nerfed into the ground ? Its talk like this that brought the bad reputation upon the EP. French is still tier 1/2 civ. It just so happens that the -100 food hurt them alot vs russia. It shifted from being fre favoured to equal maybe even slightly russia favoured. Other than that they still perform almost exactly the same as they used to do. Germany is another case. they went like 1.5 tiers down which is a lot. On the other hand they seem a lot weaker than they actually are just because they used to be top tier.
In any case. I dont like to bring the "im know it better cause im a better player" argument. But in that instance i think i have to. I hate it when players below capt ( idk what rank you are actually, but im almost certain it is not above 25) speak as if they know it all. You dont. French is fine for sure and concerning germany the tourney will tell in what state they are. They are certainly no trash tier but also not top tier anymore. As balance gets better civ tiers are getting closer and closer. And thats currently the case. But instead of realising this far to many players blame every loss on balance and jump to conclusions without evidence. To say it with sudmakmak : "Using emotions instead of logic."
Balance is progressing. Im 100 % certain that the next patch will bring great improvements as the current problems become more obvious the more games are played. Also the tourney will help greatly to give input.

To jump in, I dont think that France or Germany, standing alone, got nerfed to the ground. What I do think happened, was that they were nerfed a little bit, and other decent civs (ports, dutch and russia) were buffed a little bit, and the net affect was a pretty big difference in civ balance. What I think should be done is that one set of the civ changes (i.e. france/ger nerfs or ports/dutch/rus buffs) should be kept, and one should be reverted; so we could revert fre/ger nerfs but keep the other buffs, or keep fre/ger nerfs and revert the other buffs.

Also, it should be noted that I have only ever played fre/ger extensively on nilla, so everything I say here is based off of playing against them, with ports/dutch/rus, which are 3 of my main civs.
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Re: Russian Discussion Thread

Post by Papist »

lordraphael wrote:
In any case. I dont like to bring the "im know it better cause im a better player" argument. But in that instance i think i have to. I hate it when players below capt ( idk what rank you are actually, but im almost certain it is not above 25) speak as if they know it all. You dont.


I'm sorry, I forgot the opinion of anyone below PR 25 is a nuisance around here. Gee guys, why don't more low-ranked players post on ESOC?
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