Russians Discussion Thread

[aoefan4life]

Give Russia an age 2 cards to upgrade their muskets just like the British have(hp/attack). (This might require to increase their cost per each card sent)

[Jaeger]

Ok maybe not musk with boyars , but things like aa should give a arsenal wagon and cheaper upgrades, aa is sorta similare to an age 1 bank card, as in investing 700res and a shipment on 4 vills
My reasoning with hunting dogs for free is that russia have 5vills for the first minute of the game so its not that influential, it would also make russia age at more consistent times, its a huge problem that all civs can afford vills and constant unit production meanwhile russia has to cut vills in order to keep up with early military, they have more expensive vills than ports, and that was part of russias bonus

+1 I would LOVE a buff to the AA card, either arsenal wagon or makes arsenal improvements 50% cheaper

[Kaiserklein]

Tbh russia are fine as they are. As gs said in an other thread, they have some unexplored options.
Blackstar_op''s russians were insane fir example.

Hahaha I would have never bet even $1 that you would ever say something like that

[Garja]

Russia needs no change.

[zoom]

Ruins uniqueness.

So the abus +2 range on veteran change will be reverted, right?

I think russia suffers badly in fortress. They cant fight at all, they just cant contest skirm goon imo. strelet range being increased by 1 is an extremely minor deal, but I think it would help russia out exactly where they are lacking.

But never mind that, rip uniqueness.

Abus Guns uniqueness is not comprised of short range to anywhere near the same extent the Strelet one is.

[zoom]

Russia needs no change.

Quite possibly. My opinions are based on the assumption they do.

[iNcog]

?? Blockhouse population room increased from 5 to 10.

Pretty much the only thing I'd consider.

[Garja]

The point is any buff would make them too good in some regard, any nerf worse.
Right now they there are no issues related to Russia, so I fail to see the base on which to make any change.

[Mimsy for President]

Tbh russia are fine as they are. As gs said in an other thread, they have some unexplored options.
Blackstar_op''s russians were insane fir example.

I agree with you but you are the one who was saying Russia is the worst civ ^^ You change your mind as often as you change your underwear )

[Kaiserklein]

Tbh russia are fine as they are. As gs said in an other thread, they have some unexplored options.
Blackstar_ops russians were insane fir example.

I agree with you but you are the one who was saying Russia is the worst civ ^^ You change your mind as often as you change your underwear )

Then hes being quite constant in his statements isnt he ?

[fei123456]

start vill +1

[deleted_user0]

Upgrading strelet range is stupid. It's already the best unit of russia. Problem is the absolutely shit anticav.
Blockhouse +10 pop? That makes bh 150w barracks+outpost. Blockhouses are op already. Civ like brit would never be able to push.

Functional solution is:
1 more starting villager
-100f

Garja should actually play some Ruskis to understand that matchups like:
-Russia-German (+tp)
-Russia-India
-Russia-Otto

Are impossible to win if there is no skillgap.
Ruskis only weapon to actually win maches were opponent mapscrews in Quick search. Now after there shouldn't be mapscrews, Russia is Tier 4 civ. Maybe the worst civ in the game right now.

[Garja]

Those 3 are like the only unwinnable MUs (also iro on RE patch) and it's more about those civs being very strong rather a problem with Russia.
Russia anticav is as good as other civs. Russian muskets are weaker so you need 25% more of them to perform the same task of regular musks in colonial (in fortress they gain stats because of how the vet up works). CA also do just fine. Aside from this cav could probably be the only possible weakness of Russia so I think it's fine.
By the way, +1 vill -100f not only is a not fair trade but also kills the civ uniqueness.

[PhalluS]

Strelet range is uniquely small, as much as any Russia player would love that change it''s standardizing the unit so it''s not happening.

I would be more into simply +100f to starting crates.

+1

its a little change, but it would be fine imho. russia need no more range by strelets etc. its a offensiv civ, which needs mapcontrol and they win with a spam of units, not with quality of units.

[Garja]

The reason why I'm against the +100f change is simply that it is not needed. Even when there is some idle TC Russia ends his 14 vill at like 2.50 so they are 10-15 seconds ahead alreayd in age up time compared to other civs.

[deleted_user0]

Those 3 are like the only unwinnable MUs (also iro on RE patch) and it''s more about those civs being very strong rather a problem with Russia.
Russia anticav is as good as other civs. Russian muskets are weaker so you need 25% more of them to perform the same task of regular musks in colonial (in fortress they gain stats because of how the vet up works). CA also do just fine. Aside from this cav could probably be the only possible weakness of Russia so I think it''s fine.
By the way, +1 vill -100f not only is a not fair trade but also kills the civ uniqueness.

1) Of course it''s not a fair trade. It''s supposed to buff russia.
2) It''s supposed narrow the gap between unfair matchups. Russia wouldn''t still dominate any match ups. Russia-Brit would be maybe a little russia favoured. But pretty fair.
3) Yes. Muskets are "equal" but Russia can''t go to age III like french/porto. It''s a colonial civ. And only civ without pikes. And unupgraded muskets are pretty bad. But this is not a problem.
The problem is too weak early game eco. Only 14 + 2.5 (obligatory wood wills, unupgradable) vills. Meanwhile French is aging with 16.8 vills with hunting dogs or TP behind it. And sending 5 vills asap after reaching colonial. Just compare like french gathering to Russia at 7-9 mins.

Of course it''s maybe equal to spain or porto but they have other good uniquenesses.

[Hazza54321]

Those 3 are like the only unwinnable MUs (also iro on RE patch) and it''s more about those civs being very strong rather a problem with Russia.
Russia anticav is as good as other civs. Russian muskets are weaker so you need 25% more of them to perform the same task of regular musks in colonial (in fortress they gain stats because of how the vet up works). CA also do just fine. Aside from this cav could probably be the only possible weakness of Russia so I think it''s fine.
By the way, +1 vill -100f not only is a not fair trade but also kills the civ uniqueness.

they lose to india otto german french, iro sioux, dutch on fp, spain on fp, ports on fp

[Hazza54321]

Russia is just a tad too slow, they cant punish semis, they can punish booms without affecting their own eco too much (cutting vills) , they also have no ways to up their anti cav in age 2 apart from aa which is a huge investment

[Garja]

1) Of course its not a fair trade. Its supposed to buff russia.
2) Its supposed narrow the gap between unfair matchups. Russia wouldnt still dominate any match ups. Russia-Brit would be maybe a little russia favoured. But pretty fair.
3) Yes. Muskets are "equal" but Russia cant go to age III like french/porto. Its a colonial civ. And only civ without pikes. And unupgraded muskets are pretty bad. But this is not a problem.
The problem is too weak early game eco. Only 14 + 2.5 (obligatory wood wills, unupgradable) vills. Meanwhile French is aging with 16.8 vills with hunting dogs or TP behind it. And sending 5 vills asap after reaching colonial. Just compare like french gathering to Russia at 7-9 mins.

Of course its maybe equal to spain or porto but they have other good uniquenesses.

16,5 vills with 400w age up is pretty good. Bear in mind Russia vill count grows also faster. I dont think Russia early eco is weak at all. Comparing the gathering time with French is totally unfair simply because French outgather any civ by that time (even brits, india or germans). For the record French gathering time is a bit fake in that sense that it is not a good measure of economic power of the civ (you need to factor in shipments value, unit cost, units from free, etc.).

Again, Russia stands exactly in the same tier of civs like French and Brits so dont really need any change for the time being.

[ they lose to india otto german french, iro sioux, dutch on fp, spain on fp, ports on fp

They dont lose to french or iro on fp, they also dont lose to spain or ports either. They also can beat Sioux Im pretty sure.

Russia is just a tad too slow, they cant punish semis, they can punish booms without affecting their own eco too much (cutting vills) , they also have no ways to up their anti cav in age 2 apart from aa which is a huge investment

They dont need ups for musks cause having musks and a special RI in colonial is already an adavantage over most of civs. Not to mention they have Boyars and the other cav up which are again over the par.

[Hazza54321]

1) Of course its not a fair trade. Its supposed to buff russia.
2) Its supposed narrow the gap between unfair matchups. Russia wouldnt still dominate any match ups. Russia-Brit would be maybe a little russia favoured. But pretty fair.
3) Yes. Muskets are "equal" but Russia cant go to age III like french/porto. Its a colonial civ. And only civ without pikes. And unupgraded muskets are pretty bad. ?But this is not a problem.
?The problem is too weak early game eco. Only 14 + 2.5 (obligatory wood wills, unupgradable) vills. Meanwhile French is aging with 16.8 vills with hunting dogs or TP behind it. And sending 5 vills asap after reaching colonial. Just compare like french gathering to Russia at 7-9 mins.

Of course its maybe equal to spain or porto but they have other good?uniquenesses.

16,5 vills with 400w age up is pretty good. Bear in mind Russia vill count grows also faster. I dont think Russia early eco is weak at all. Comparing the gathering time with French is totally unfair simply because French outgather any civ by that time (even brits, india or germans). For the record French gathering time is a bit fake in that sense that it is not a good measure of economic power of the civ (you need to factor in shipments value, unit cost, units from free, etc.).

Again, Russia stands exactly in the same tier of civs like French and Brits so dont really need any change for the time being.

[ they lose to india otto german french, iro sioux, dutch on fp, spain on fp, ports on fp

They dont lose to french or iro on fp, they also dont lose to spain or ports either. They also can beat Sioux Im pretty sure.

Russia is just a tad too slow, they cant punish semis, they can punish booms without affecting their own eco too much (cutting vills) , they also have no ways to up their anti cav in age 2 apart from aa which is a huge investment

They dont need ups for musks cause having musks and a special RI in colonial is already an adavantage over most of civs. Not to mention they have Boyars and the other cav up which are again over the par.

yes but brit has 2 musk ups meaning civs with decent number of cav can exploit that vs russia because of lag of musk ups (except aa)

[Garja]

yes but brit has 2 musk ups meaning civs with decent number of cav can exploit that vs russia because of lag of musk ups (except aa)

how so? you have strelets that are essentially skirms and then you also have musks (while dutch and aztecs have pikes for example).
vs a steady musk huss spam you need a steady musk strelets spam. I''d say 80% musks and 20% strelets. There is simple no way brits can win that way in the long run.

[deleted_user0]

yes but brit has 2 musk ups meaning civs with decent number of cav can exploit that vs russia because of lag of musk ups (except aa)

how so? you have strelets that are essentially skirms and then you also have musks (while dutch and aztecs have pikes for example).
vs a steady musk huss spam you need a steady musk strelets spam. Id say 80% musks and 20% strelets. There is simple no way brits can win that way in the long run.

Except they gather like 2x if they just have hunts?

[Hazza54321]

yes but brit has 2 musk ups meaning civs with decent number of cav can exploit that vs russia because of lag of musk ups (except aa)

how so? you have strelets that are essentially skirms and then you also have musks (while dutch and aztecs have pikes for example).
vs a steady musk huss spam you need a steady musk strelets spam. Id say 80% musks and 20% strelets. There is simple no way brits can win that way in the long run.

your forgetting brits early eco is so much better that they end up having equal musk early game anyway, their eco isnt good til like the 15th minute

[Garja]

not true, russia eco is actually very close to brit one. And the defecit of gathering is compensated by cheapness of units.

[momuuu]

So, how would you guys rate all of the match ups that involve russia? Similair to the germany topic, I think that is a fair thing to discuss to move forward in our evaluation. If you conclude that they lose a terrible lot of match ups, what is the main cause for those match ups being hard to win?