Chinese Discussion Thread

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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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I mismicro'd
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

deleted_user wrote:I mismicro'd

Clearly so did I. I'm a terrible player. The real thing to note is that the armies were about even throughout the game.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

momuuu wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Honestly I've play it so much and Brits just wins.
Anyway, I agree with Umeu, agressive builds are your best bet. There is just no way you can beat a VC brit with an eco ff.
By the way, you just want to go for a musk/huss composition with 2 falcs, and you will have a lot more+ China can't deal with the 2 falcs.

I haven't tested this much, but as China I did theorize and succesfully use a dock build against VC FF: Get 1 village and then ship the dock and build 2 fishing boats and then build a few more in transition up to like 9-15, not sure what's best. Kinda seemed like China with their free units and porcelain tower and then 10 extra vills in the form of fishing boats could keep up reasonably well with brits and then at the end of the day probably has the better army. Worth testing, I'd say it might be one of the better strats to go for as China in that match up.

Well, it would be worth testing but I don't think that would be enough.
The issue isn't simply the eco, but also the unit composition. It feels almost impossible to deal with musk/huss+2falcs as China.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

i dont see why tbh. imo the issue is clearly the eco. if the eco between 2 civs were similar, or even if china had like 25% more eco then brits would never win this mu.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

The issue is indeed eco, more specifically Brit's eco and China's inability to punish it. Musk huss does a good job of closing it out because the comp is very hard to beat if you are playing with an eco deficit and don't have goons.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

How about the nuanced "its probably a combination of the two" ? I feel like if the game state sort of stabilizes and China and brit are even in eco, then I'd prefer the china side of things. However, brits efficient boom and strong early fortress eco allows them to apperantly muster up an unbeatable army. Like Goodspeed says, the musk huss composition is probably hard to cost effectively beat as China, which they'd have to do. It's probably a safe unit composition to close the game out with, as the best china can do is match it with arq+ chandao.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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i dunno why musk huss would be unbeatable as china can deal with ashi nagi as well. the combo isnt the issue, its that once china is out of shipments, theyre not gonna match brit respam. so if they dont win the 13m fight. they wont be able to hold the reinforcements that come after. and for that it doesnt matter so much what brits makes tbh. musk huss or lb goon huss, the end result is the same.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Ye musk huss is nothing special vs China honestly. Skirm+changdao is in fact the natural counter to that. If anything it's a forced option because pure lbow-huss like in past will be in trouble vs a 3 unit combo (especially because cannons and lbows can't kite). Lbow-huss-goons takes too long, doesn't grant enough dps (still need 2 falcs) and still has the kiting problem. Lbow-goon is not going to work vs China deathball because no meatshield and no free cav kills with kiting.
China normally outlasts Brits because of exports, wonders , cost efficient units, 400-600g saved from unit ups and livestock.
On top of that it's true that big fight is going to dictate the direction of the game but at 13 min benchmark China has the classic top notch 100-110 unit pop with already 1 up sent.
To me it is all about if Brit can mantain any tempo with the 2 falcs early in fortress, otherwise China outscales.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

umeu wrote:i dunno why musk huss would be unbeatable as china can deal with ashi nagi as well. the combo isnt the issue, its that once china is out of shipments, theyre not gonna match brit respam. so if they dont win the 13m fight. they wont be able to hold the reinforcements that come after. and for that it doesnt matter so much what brits makes tbh. musk huss or lb goon huss, the end result is the same.

Well true it's mostly because they can't match the brit mass :P
Still flaming arrows are a lot weaker than falcs
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

After the Forbidden Army train-points nerf, the army trains in the same time as the Territorial Army, to help give some context.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by enjoy2play »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
umeu wrote:i dunno why musk huss would be unbeatable as china can deal with ashi nagi as well. the combo isnt the issue, its that once china is out of shipments, theyre not gonna match brit respam. so if they dont win the 13m fight. they wont be able to hold the reinforcements that come after. and for that it doesnt matter so much what brits makes tbh. musk huss or lb goon huss, the end result is the same.

Well true it's mostly because they can't match the brit mass :P
Still flaming arrows are a lot weaker than falcs


maybe thats why they cost -20%, not sure
Acergamer wrote:Well, that's it for me fellas haha. Anyways I just want to say good luck to Samwise12 ,and hope he beats Lordraphael since he's basically a piece of shit idiot combination of Garja and Umeu.
N3O_Jerom wrote:and huh the balance is actually pretty good
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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It does not matter how strong Old Han is really, we never see it anyway. Imo it is completely fine right now, not very strong but easy and comfortable to get.

A bigger problem I personally see is the growing number of no-tp maps. The Autumn tournament and the Weekend supremacy tournament map pools consist of no-tp maps for nearly 50%. Hell, the quicksearch map pool has 5 no-tp maps out of 24, and it is already enough! :)

The problem is that there are only 4 viable civs on these maps. This has made the Autumn tournament have the most upsets out of all.

Q: Why do we have so many of such maps?
A: Because our mapmakers (Garja, Rikikipu) both like to play the civs that are good on these maps.

Q: Why do such civilizations (India, Britain) remain unnerfed for the last 3 years?
A: Because our balance team prefers these civilizations (GoodSpeed, WickedCossack).

I hope we don't so many no-tp maps in our future tournaments, it doesn't have to be Klondike and High Plains, just normal 3-4 tp maps and not what we have right now.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Post by rsy »

Hey yurashic you should get on the esoc maps team and patch team! Your brilliant ideas will help out tremendously!
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Omg not the TP discussion again. China is NOT a TP civ. It has never been until a day when some guy decided to drop a TP at start instead of 2nd village. Nothing more nor less than Brits which drop a TP with a 300w start. That doesn't make them a TP civ. In fact the very concept of "TP civ" is to be revised in the current meta, just like the concept of "sea civ".
I find super annoying when people use this argument and even more when they apply it to China which is one of the civs that benefits from no TP maps since its hardest MUs are supposed to be against the TP based civs while they have always done great against non TP civs.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

you kinda have to admit china is better with a tp though, so many more options
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Garja wrote:Omg not the TP discussion again. China is NOT a TP civ. It has never been until a day when some guy decided to drop a TP at start instead of 2nd village. Nothing more nor less than Brits which drop a TP with a 300w start. That doesn't make them a TP civ. In fact the very concept of "TP civ" is to be revised in the current meta, just like the concept of "sea civ".
I find super annoying when people use this argument and even more when they apply it to China which is one of the civs that benefits from no TP maps since its hardest MUs are supposed to be against the TP based civs while they have always done great against non TP civs.


You said yourself that it is your least played civ, why do you teach other people how to play your least played civ?
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Hazza54321 wrote:you kinda have to admit china is better with a tp though, so many more options


What he says isnt wrong though. I wouldnt call china a tp civ, even though tp > village pretty much always. Its more like fre. Sure tp fre > no tp fre, but its still fine without tp in many cases. Unlike germany or otto for example.

I would also prefer tp india over no to, but its not a tp civ.

However i disagree that china struggles most vs tp civs. Imo chinas hardest mus are brits, aztec, russia and japan. And these mus get significantly worse on no to maps, whereas on no tp maps theyre still in an ok position.

Sure mus vs germany or lets say sioux get more difficult on tp maps, but i still prefer tp map vs ger than no tp vs russia or aztec
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

enjoy2play wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
umeu wrote:i dunno why musk huss would be unbeatable as china can deal with ashi nagi as well. the combo isnt the issue, its that once china is out of shipments, theyre not gonna match brit respam. so if they dont win the 13m fight. they wont be able to hold the reinforcements that come after. and for that it doesnt matter so much what brits makes tbh. musk huss or lb goon huss, the end result is the same.

Well true it's mostly because they can't match the brit mass :P
Still flaming arrows are a lot weaker than falcs


maybe thats why they cost -20%, not sure

Yes but you only have 2 arrows in the shipment, so since you're not going to build a castle and train them, their cost is irrelevant.
Still, dps wise, they're more than 20% weaker vs infantry.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

umeu wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:you kinda have to admit china is better with a tp though, so many more options


What he says isnt wrong though. I wouldnt call china a tp civ, even though tp > village pretty much always. Its more like fre. Sure tp fre > no tp fre, but its still fine without tp in many cases. Unlike germany or otto for example.

I would also prefer tp india over no to, but its not a tp civ.

However i disagree that china struggles most vs tp civs. Imo chinas hardest mus are brits, aztec, russia and japan. And these mus get significantly worse on no to maps, whereas on no tp maps theyre still in an ok position.

Sure mus vs germany or lets say sioux get more difficult on tp maps, but i still prefer tp map vs ger than no tp vs russia or aztec

Japan is a bad MU for china?
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

yurashic wrote:
Garja wrote:Omg not the TP discussion again. China is NOT a TP civ. It has never been until a day when some guy decided to drop a TP at start instead of 2nd village. Nothing more nor less than Brits which drop a TP with a 300w start. That doesn't make them a TP civ. In fact the very concept of "TP civ" is to be revised in the current meta, just like the concept of "sea civ".
I find super annoying when people use this argument and even more when they apply it to China which is one of the civs that benefits from no TP maps since its hardest MUs are supposed to be against the TP based civs while they have always done great against non TP civs.


You said yourself that it is your least played civ, why do you teach other people how to play your least played civ?

Because, I've seen them played countless of times, way before people used to TP. The TP thing is recent, there are like 6 years before the TP meta and it's not like China have ever been bad.

Hazza54321 wrote:you kinda have to admit china is better with a tp though, so many more options

I do use the TP myself at start. It's just that the difference isn't huge in FF wars when you drop it anyway from 700w. China used to win lot of MUs without considering TP at all.

Btw FA are worse because they're sort of culvs. They have more range. Only thing that sucks about FA is the ROF.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Frankly the aoe3 theory before 2016 is almost irrelevant.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
umeu wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:you kinda have to admit china is better with a tp though, so many more options


What he says isnt wrong though. I wouldnt call china a tp civ, even though tp > village pretty much always. Its more like fre. Sure tp fre > no tp fre, but its still fine without tp in many cases. Unlike germany or otto for example.

I would also prefer tp india over no to, but its not a tp civ.

However i disagree that china struggles most vs tp civs. Imo chinas hardest mus are brits, aztec, russia and japan. And these mus get significantly worse on no to maps, whereas on no tp maps theyre still in an ok position.

Sure mus vs germany or lets say sioux get more difficult on tp maps, but i still prefer tp map vs ger than no tp vs russia or aztec

Japan is a bad MU for china?


on no tp maps, it definitely is. on tp maps, i would still favor japan, but it's a lot closer.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Rikikipu »

yurashic wrote:Q: Why do we have so many of such maps?
A: Because our mapmakers (Garja, Rikikipu) both like to play the civs that are good on these maps.

I don't take it bad really, you have the right to think so, but I would like to recall that my main civ is germany and that I've done only 1 no-tp map out of 10 maps, so really your argument is not only false, but the exact contrary of the reality.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

riki only makes maps that are good for his main civ! you heard it here first folks!
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by yurashic »

Garja wrote:Because, I've seen them played countless of times, way before people used to TP. The TP thing is recent, there are like 6 years before the TP meta and it's not like China have ever been bad.


People used to do many things before the TP meta and before EP.

Meta is evolving. 3 years ago all we saw were Japan mirrors with age 4 play. 2 years ago all we saw were French mirrors with musket/bow spam. This is now gone. Now we see India aging up instead of sepoy rushing, Aztec dancing with vills for priests, Germany and France doing no unit ff's. China TP is part of it.

Rikikipu wrote:I don't take it bad really, you have the right to think so, but I would like to recall that my main civ is germany and that I've done only 1 no-tp map out of 10 maps, so really your argument is not only false, but the exact contrary of the reality.


Ok, then it is Garja who made those maps.

You always rush, I remember that you either do the Aztec rush, the German outlaw rush with no eco, the Iro rush or the Dutch skirm/pike rush. It seems to be the reason why you make so low food maps.

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