Chinese Discussion Thread

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New Zealand zoom
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

britishmusketeer wrote:Hmm yea it's just the repentant ones that don't have the multiplier. I'm thinking the card that lets you train them might be super op in that case since they also cost 200g(value is 400g).
Something tells me that isn't EP.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by britishmusketeer »

zoom wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:Hmm yea it's just the repentant ones that don't have the multiplier. I'm thinking the card that lets you train them might be super op in that case since they also cost 200g(value is 400g).
Something tells me that isn't EP.

you can train iron troops in age 3 monastery on ep.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by britishmusketeer »

Seems like early tp => 2 vill, 700g, 700w, atonement, anti cav shipments and make pure repentent iron troops for 200g each without negative multiplier against cav is legit good if you have at least 2 mines in your base.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

britishmusketeer wrote:
zoom wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:Hmm yea it's just the repentant ones that don't have the multiplier. I'm thinking the card that lets you train them might be super op in that case since they also cost 200g(value is 400g).
Something tells me that isn't EP.

you can train iron troops in age 3 monastery on ep.
By default? What about Jats and Yo-jo:s then??

Regardless, something still tells me that screen-shot is not featuring EP.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by britishmusketeer »

zoom wrote:
britishmusketeer wrote:
Show hidden quotes

you can train iron troops in age 3 monastery on ep.
By default? What about Jats and Yo-jo:s then??

Regardless, something still tells me that screen-shot is not featuring EP.

If you send the card you can train iron troops in age 3 on ep.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Yes, you can.

Now please tell me: is the screen-shot of EP or is it not?
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by pecelot »

You can always check yourself, you know... :!:
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by britishmusketeer »

zoom wrote:Yes, you can.

Now please tell me: is the screen-shot of EP or is it not?

Can't remember although I just tested it and they have the exact same stats on ep.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Post by zoom »

Thanks! If Repentant Irons and Jägers lack a cavalry multiplier on EP, it's an oversight.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by fei123456 »

batch training actually makes china less versatile and flexible. china is quite an overestimated civ imo, and after training speed nerf of forbidden army they're nothing now.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

I think China is fine, but Spain is easier to play and a comparable fortress age, making China kinda useless.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

Couprider wrote:batch training actually makes china less versatile and flexible. china is quite an overestimated civ imo, and after training speed nerf of forbidden army they're nothing now.


I think so too, they should lessen Han nerf a bit, and probably revert forbidden army train time. Either that or give China +100f starting crate to compensate.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by forgrin »

China was only an issue on EP 1.0 on literally 2 maps (Tibet, kinda manchuria). They didn't really deserve a whole bunch of nerfs, and their poor results in EP 2.0 despite France/Germany being nerfed too is indicative of this.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

forgrin wrote:China was only an issue on EP 1.0 on literally 2 maps (Tibet, kinda manchuria). They didn't really deserve a whole bunch of nerfs, and their poor results in EP 2.0 despite France/Germany being nerfed too is indicative of this.


Reduce Han nerf to 25% and revert army train points. Herdable nerf can stay. I think China will be ok then, if other civs don't get big buffs.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

China is fine.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Nathan_Drake98 »

China is around average imo.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

n0eL wrote:I don't think so. China is not great. The are like a shitty version of Spain and don't have the ability to take advantage of TP maps or get faster shipment.

They cant take advantage of TP's but can take advantage of livestock maps. I would just revert the fattening nerf honestly.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by pecelot »

The thing is, to what extent. I don't think we want to see only Chinese mirrors again on maps like Tibet... :hmm:
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

Darwin_ wrote:
n0eL wrote:I don't think so. China is not great. The are like a shitty version of Spain and don't have the ability to take advantage of TP maps or get faster shipment.

They cant take advantage of TP's but can take advantage of livestock maps. I would just revert the fattening nerf honestly.


Its China's civ bonus, but it should be kept on a reasonable level, because it is map dependent. I think its ok at the moment. China could use buff in the other departments.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

@Atomiswave Where would you buff them? They are pretty resistant to rushes, and their crazy death ball can seem to just get out of control sometimes. Do you think that their early fortress should be improved? I think that a case could be made for that, but their mid-late fortress should not be any stronger than it already is.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

Darwin_ wrote:@Atomiswave Where would you buff them? They are pretty resistant to rushes, and their crazy death ball can seem to just get out of control sometimes. Do you think that their early fortress should be improved? I think that a case could be made for that, but their mid-late fortress should not be any stronger than it already is.


Biggest problem is relatively low anti cav potential, especially vs heavy cav. You cant mass enough Changdao and they need to be microed very good or they die easily vs LI because they are melee units. You can ship max 2 batches of redcoats before you perform timing push, China's ranged anti cav unit(Keshik) sucks big time, while Manchu's are great, but you don't always have 1000g to ship them.

And who says China is resistant to rushes. For example Russia was counterciv even on re, now even more on esoc with China's nerfs and Russia buffs.

We could safely say China is one of those civs with high skill ceiling, where you need to do everything right in order to win, while your opponent has room for error with most other civs.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

Atomiswave wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:@Atomiswave Where would you buff them? They are pretty resistant to rushes, and their crazy death ball can seem to just get out of control sometimes. Do you think that their early fortress should be improved? I think that a case could be made for that, but their mid-late fortress should not be any stronger than it already is.


Biggest problem is relatively low anti cav potential, especially vs heavy cav. You cant mass enough Changdao and they need to be microed very good or they die easily vs LI because they are melee units. You can ship max 2 batches of redcoats before you perform timing push, China's ranged anti cav unit(Keshik) sucks big time, while Manchu's are great, but you don't always have 1000g to ship them. I think that a simple HP buff to their heavy cavalry or changdao could solve some of those issues. However, every civ should have some sort of unit weakness, some civs, like russia, china and even Germany are very weak to cav-heavy compositions, while something like Japan is weak to light infantry rushes. I think that, while it is a weakness of the civ, it is sort of by design, due to how strong they are in so many other areas.

And who says China is resistant to rushes. For example Russia was counterciv even on re, now even more on esoc with China's nerfs and Russia buffs. They are resistant to rushes, for a naked ff civ. Spain gets rekt way harder by rushes than China. China has villages, which are extremely good for quickly protecting villagers that are gathering, and they also have some great age 2 unit shipments, coupled with units from the summer palace. Their base also just has tons of structure and HP. I think people that lose to rushes as China either dont play the matchup correctly, or dont use villages well.

We could safely say China is one of those civs with high skill ceiling, where you need to do everything right in order to win, while your opponent has room for error with most other civs.I would honestly argue differently. I would say that, if you have decent experience with the civ, lower level players can do very well with china. I wouldnt say that they are have a high skill-gap, more like an experience gap. They have tons of options, and it takes expirience to know all of them and hwo to use them. For an aggressive civ, I think they are very reactionary, but in a different way than brits or japan.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

Darwin_ wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Biggest problem is relatively low anti cav potential, especially vs heavy cav. You cant mass enough Changdao and they need to be microed very good or they die easily vs LI because they are melee units. You can ship max 2 batches of redcoats before you perform timing push, China's ranged anti cav unit(Keshik) sucks big time, while Manchu's are great, but you don't always have 1000g to ship them. I think that a simple HP buff to their heavy cavalry or changdao could solve some of those issues. However, every civ should have some sort of unit weakness, some civs, like russia, china and even Germany are very weak to cav-heavy compositions, while something like Japan is weak to light infantry rushes. I think that, while it is a weakness of the civ, it is sort of by design, due to how strong they are in so many other areas.

And who says China is resistant to rushes. For example Russia was counterciv even on re, now even more on esoc with China's nerfs and Russia buffs. They are resistant to rushes, for a naked ff civ. Spain gets rekt way harder by rushes than China. China has villages, which are extremely good for quickly protecting villagers that are gathering, and they also have some great age 2 unit shipments, coupled with units from the summer palace. Their base also just has tons of structure and HP. I think people that lose to rushes as China either dont play the matchup correctly, or dont use villages well.

We could safely say China is one of those civs with high skill ceiling, where you need to do everything right in order to win, while your opponent has room for error with most other civs.I would honestly argue differently. I would say that, if you have decent experience with the civ, lower level players can do very well with china. I wouldnt say that they are have a high skill-gap, more like an experience gap. They have tons of options, and it takes expirience to know all of them and hwo to use them. For an aggressive civ, I think they are very reactionary, but in a different way than brits or japan.


Your arguments are in place, but if other civs receive more buffs, and China stays the same it will prob be on the weak side.

About fail/hammer or changdao buff suggestion, there is also another dimension of it. Some would argue that you have respective cards for it, which is valid argument, But like i said you rarely mass enough mentioned units in order for upg. cards to pay off, especially shield card for cav, whis is btw very good age 3 card. If you ask me I would go fo +100f so China can age up little smoother IF current nerfs stay, and other civs get additional buffs.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by yurashic »

pecelot wrote:The thing is, to what extent. I don't think we want to see only Chinese mirrors again on maps like Tibet... :hmm:


Just choose India or Russia and China can't do much.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by tedere12 »

I suggest to make the old han batch train time smaller in summer palace so that they can get 3 pike+3 xbow quicker to combine with mm/disciples so that 5 cav cant keep them idle for so long and slow their ageup time so much

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