Chinese Discussion Thread

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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

China fortress needs no buff tho.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

I think most people here are against changning china. Therefore i actually also don't understand why Sir Hazza would define it a "meme civ". The only change i would be really curious to see is enabling the german consulate trickles in the colonial age. Perhaps that would open up a possibility for long term colonial play/GFA build. To be frank though at this stage it isn't very clear to me whether EP wants to spice the game up or just balance it. It feels like a mix of both.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

gamevideo113 wrote: To be frank though at this stage it isn't very clear to me whether EP wants to spice the game up or just balance it. It feels like a mix of both.

Ye, let's admit it is totally arbitrary and "project head" decides.
China could reasonably be reworked much more than Sioux as there is more room for just tweaking numbers with a great effect on civ design.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by yemshi »

Don't understand you here.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:China fortress needs no buff tho.
At the very least, Territorial army should train faster.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

gamevideo113 wrote:I think most people here are against changning china. Therefore i actually also don't understand why Sir Hazza would define it a "meme civ". The only change i would be really curious to see is enabling the german consulate trickles in the colonial age. Perhaps that would open up a possibility for long term colonial play/GFA build. To be frank though at this stage it isn't very clear to me whether EP wants to spice the game up or just balance it. It feels like a mix of both.
Given his posts, it seems he just likes to krai a lot then krai about no one taking him seriously.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote: To be frank though at this stage it isn't very clear to me whether EP wants to spice the game up or just balance it. It feels like a mix of both.

Ye, let's admit it is totally arbitrary and "project head" decides.
China could reasonably be reworked much more than Sioux as there is more room for just tweaking numbers with a great effect on civ design.
While the project lead does decide in the end, it is anything but arbitrary. Goodspeed takes many things into account, and feedback is vital to him.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:China fortress needs no buff tho.
At the very least, Territorial army should train faster.

Well, that's more about consistency than balance. From balance standpoint territorial army is just fine.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

revert to re
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

The nerfs china got are pretty much minor ones (probably also a bit deserved), so i don't think it is in a bad spot. Considering it wasn't an OP civ in the first place though it is kinda awkward to just nerf the civ without any compensation, which gives grounds for a possible change.

What about buffing the asian-ATP? Just throwing ideas in.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:How is 27 not adequate? Or you mean it is actually not 27?
It's actually 33; it's 27 for both individual units in the proto file. Although 27 would be a bit low, in my opinion.
zoom wrote:Apart from floating crates, the change that makes the most sense is buffing Territorial Army train-points. It's artificially high and probably bugged, comparing the proto files to actual values with those of other banner armies.
These are the numbers for the War Academy banner-armies (the higher the ratio the better):

Ming army (Keshiks and Qiang Pikemen): 465res; 25tp; 18.6 ratio
Old Han army (Chu Ko Nus and Qiang Pikemen): 435res; 25tp; 17.4 ratio
Standard army (Chu Ko Nus and Steppe Riders): 425res; 25tp; 17 ratio

Forbidden army (Iron Flails and Meteor Hammers): 830res; 33tp (29 on RE); 25.15 ratio (28.62 on RE)
Imperial army (Iron Flails and Arquebusiers): 735res; 33tp (22.27 ratio)
Territorial army (Arquebusiers and Changdao Swordsmen): 540res; 33tp (16.36 ratio)

Chu Ko Nu: 24tp
Keshik: 33tp
Steppe Rider: 35tp
Qiang Pikeman: 24tp

Arquebusier: 27tp
Changdao Swordsman: 27tp
Iron Flail: 40tp
Meteor Hammer: 40tp

Buffing Changdao cost from 95f to 85f and Territorial army train-points from 33 to 29 makes good sense to me, resulting in a ratio of 17.59.

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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by tabben »

What's with the shit multiplier for Changdao vs. cav? They even have less damage vs. cav than the age 2 pikes, also less siege while costing far more.. Having 10% extra melee resist and 15hp more isn't that impactful when they're main purpose is to dps down the opponent's cav. Feels like a joke unit right now. Compare them to halbs for example, while not being the best unit overall at least serves as a descent anti-cav.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Post by Kaiserklein »

Changdaos cost only 95f, that's cheaper than a pike actually. Comparing colo stats, they have the same hp, 10% more melee resist, and twice the attack. So yeah they deal a bit less damage to cav than pikes (15*2.3 means around 34 damage to cav, while a pike does 40), but like I said they deal twice the damage to every other unit, which easily makes up for that. They're better than pikes, and they're also better than halbs.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Changdaos are funny units because of that high attack. Generally you're better off just headbutting them in there than trying to perfectly chase cav.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by TNT333 »

Make keshiks great again!!
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:How is 27 not adequate? Or you mean it is actually not 27?
It's actually 33; it's 27 for both individual units in the proto file. Although 27 would be a bit low, in my opinion.
zoom wrote:Apart from floating crates, the change that makes the most sense is buffing Territorial Army train-points. It's artificially high and probably bugged, comparing the proto files to actual values with those of other banner armies.
These are the numbers for the War Academy banner-armies (the higher the ratio the better):

Ming army (Keshiks and Qiang Pikemen): 465res; 25tp; 18.6 ratio
Old Han army (Chu Ko Nus and Qiang Pikemen): 435res; 25tp; 17.4 ratio
Standard army (Chu Ko Nus and Steppe Riders): 425res; 25tp; 17 ratio

Forbidden army (Iron Flails and Meteor Hammers): 830res; 33tp (29 on RE); 25.15 ratio (28.62 on RE)
Imperial army (Iron Flails and Arquebusiers): 735res; 33tp (22.27 ratio)
Territorial army (Arquebusiers and Changdao Swordsmen): 540res; 33tp (16.36 ratio)

Chu Ko Nu: 24tp
Keshik: 33tp
Steppe Rider: 35tp
Qiang Pikeman: 24tp

Arquebusier: 27tp
Changdao Swordsman: 27tp
Iron Flail: 40tp
Meteor Hammer: 40tp

Buffing Changdao cost from 95f to 85f and Territorial army train-points from 33 to 29 makes good sense to me, resulting in a ratio of 17.59.


The train time of each banner army is the sum of the train time of the single units weighted for the pop ratio in a batch of 5.

E.g.
territorial army =(( 27pt+27pt)/2) *6/5 = 32.4pt. Or 27pt*3/5 + 27pt*3/5 = 32.4pt
So it should train in about 32 seconds (33 currently).
Colonial banner armies have somewhat a discount factor, perhaps because old han units are seen as less than 1 pop each (0.8 for example).
The reason why train time for trained banner armies doesn't work on unit cost is because that would double the advantage of having cost efficient units, especially in the case of changdao and arqbusier, whose cost is by far less than their comparative weakness to their european counterparts.
The counterprove of this is the fact that fortress banner armies all have different cost to train ratios, while they are consistent in pop to train time ratio.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Archaic units train faster for every civ afaik. And ye, the train time is pop related. Which is why the cav train time nerf is so big.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Cav train time at 29seconds (on RE) assumed both chinese cav units trained in 35 seconds rather than 40 (the train time for units like ulhan rather than hussar). The protofile says 40 seconds tho. 40*4/5=32 (currently 33 on EP).
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Garja wrote:Cav train time at 29seconds (on RE) assumed both chinese cav units trained in 35 seconds rather than 40 (the train time for units like ulhan rather than hussar). The protofile says 40 seconds tho. 40*4/5=32 (currently 33 on EP).


You have to take batch mechanic into account imo. Which is why the train times are slightly better. Since you cant queue one, gather the res, and then finish the batch.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Ye that's also what I was thinking. The more expensive the batch, the better train time is given because it's hard to fit with the overall macro.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Kazamkikaz »

why Summer palace has to wait till you have population space to produce the next batch of banner army?
And not just lose the batch if u dont hv population like otto free vill prodution , heavy cannon from factory etc that might help a bit making the "death ball" looks less scary.
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Brooken China!
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

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Post by tabben »

Kazamkikaz wrote:why Summer palace has to wait till you have population space to produce the next batch of banner army?
And not just lose the batch if u dont hv population like otto free vill prodution , heavy cannon from factory etc that might help a bit making the "death ball" looks less scary.

Losing an entire banner army due to, let's say, a village just going down sounds like quite poor design to me. If anything we should make factories/otto TCs wait for pop space instead of occasionally deleting units. But I'm not sure whether this is actually possible to fix. @EAGLEMUT
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by Kazamkikaz »

tabben wrote:
Kazamkikaz wrote:why Summer palace has to wait till you have population space to produce the next batch of banner army?
And not just lose the batch if u dont hv population like otto free vill production , heavy cannon from factory etc that might help a bit making the "death ball" looks less scary.

Losing an entire banner army due to, let's say, a village just going down sounds like quite poor design to me. If anything we should make factories/otto TCs wait for pop space instead of occasionally deleting units. But I'm not sure whether this is actually possible to fix. @EAGLEMUT

Normally u lose otto vills production cause of macro mistake or losing the house by an attack, so basically you get punished but the china ff is good strategy and u can get a lot army with china with shipments and consulate etc so get punished cause u had delayed 1 village building or cause u didn't have army to defend the early attacks and lost village(s) sounds reasonable to me, and let's say, relying on a batch of 4 to 5 units that u get every ~3 to 4 min to build your army seems dumb, so i don't think this nerf is too much.

This just help you be more careful with what you sacrifice : villages, settlers or army :devil:
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Re: Chinese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Don't listen to silly Tabben. He'll say anything not to nerf Chinese!

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