French Discussion Thread

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Poland pecelot
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by pecelot »

Darwin_ wrote:I still think that there needs to be a gendarme nerf. If you just make them scale off of colonial stats, their age v stats are still decent, and their age 3 isnt affected at all.

I agree, it would potentially improve the team game balance, too!
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Re: French Discussion Thread

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Post by Kaiserklein »

I think -100f is pretty awkward in the end, it makes it really hard to get a TP/market early on (sometimes you'll have to age with 15 cdbs) on 200f starts. You can't queue 2 cdbs in your tc, which is pretty weird. I think this change should be reverted, and instead buff weaker civs to france's level or find another nerf for france. The -100f actually makes france even more boring, because you can't ever age 13 cdbs again, and aggressive builds feel awkward. The semi isn't really much changed though. So it just makes the civ even more linear
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Even with the worst conditions (200f and 100g start) French early market remains the easiest one to perform. French start was way beyond the average efficiency so -100f actually just standardized it a bit.
I don't know why people make such big deal out of it.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

For the record it's harder to market on 300f 100w than on 200f 100w 100g. And even with 200f 100w 100g, you'll have to put instantly 3-4 cdbs on food (otherwise you can prod only 1 cdb), which means you get hunt dogs pretty late and you might have to age 15 (or get a lot of idle time) if you don't get a good treasure, just like germany sometimes has to age 18.
Ofc it doesn't mean france is useless, but it's just that, as I said, it makes france even more of a greedy semi ff civ. I feel like we should rather nerf their middle game somehow, instead of their early game. The goon nerf goes in that way and I guess it's good, we should probs find another middle/late game nerf like that.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:For the record it's harder to market on 300f 100w than on 200f 100w 100g. And even with 200f 100w 100g, you'll have to put instantly 3-4 cdbs on food (otherwise you can prod only 1 cdb), which means you get hunt dogs pretty late and you might have to age 15 (or get a lot of idle time) if you don't get a good treasure, just like germany sometimes has to age 18.
Ofc it doesn't mean france is useless, but it's just that, as I said, it makes france even more of a greedy semi ff civ. I feel like we should rather nerf their middle game somehow, instead of their early game. The goon nerf goes in that way and I guess it's good, we should probs find another middle/late game nerf like that.
Please explain how a food spawn makes it harder to early Market than a coin spawn.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Jaeger »

zoom wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:For the record it's harder to market on 300f 100w than on 200f 100w 100g. And even with 200f 100w 100g, you'll have to put instantly 3-4 cdbs on food (otherwise you can prod only 1 cdb), which means you get hunt dogs pretty late and you might have to age 15 (or get a lot of idle time) if you don't get a good treasure, just like germany sometimes has to age 18.
Ofc it doesn't mean france is useless, but it's just that, as I said, it makes france even more of a greedy semi ff civ. I feel like we should rather nerf their middle game somehow, instead of their early game. The goon nerf goes in that way and I guess it's good, we should probs find another middle/late game nerf like that.
Please explain how a coin spawn makes it harder to early Market than a coin spawn.

What do you mean? He said 300f 100w and 200f 100w 100g. The gold spawn is more VS
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Yeah not sure I understand
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Kaiserklein wrote:For the record it's harder to market on 300f 100w than on 200f 100w 100g. And even with 200f 100w 100g, you'll have to put instantly 3-4 cdbs on food (otherwise you can prod only 1 cdb), which means you get hunt dogs pretty late and you might have to age 15 (or get a lot of idle time) if you don't get a good treasure, just like germany sometimes has to age 18.
Ofc it doesn't mean france is useless, but it's just that, as I said, it makes france even more of a greedy semi ff civ. I feel like we should rather nerf their middle game somehow, instead of their early game. The goon nerf goes in that way and I guess it's good, we should probs find another middle/late game nerf like that.

With coin treasures in base is pretty much the same thing. Anyway it's not really relevant since it is easy anyway compared to any TWC civ or even just Germans or Brits.
As for mid game nerf instead of -100f we could have nerfed cdbs by 5f. -100f was targeted in particular for the 12/10 age up or the 13v age.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

ofc its not same. with coin tres in base its only 50w that you have to gather on coin start. without coin start, u have to gather 50w + like 85c, and that's assuming you pick up like 90 coin near your base.

for a market start, 200w and 100w 100c are pretty much the same. just 100w is far worse. even if it gives an extra 100f, specially on maps that don't have coin tres near base
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

It is a 50w difference, which with French efficiency and average EP treasures is pretty much the same.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

thats a big difference. its like aging at 3.00 or at 3.15..
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

No, more like 3.05 and 3.12. Honestly even 3.00 (impossible btw) and 3.15 is not a great difference when compared to other civs.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

We could have slowed age up time by just reducing CDB train time by one or two seconds, which I believe AS FP did also. -100 food is just so awkward, and can totally ruin more aggressive builds, which weren't OP, while Semi-ff's arent as hurt, even though they were the ones that needed weakening. When I first saw the patch notes, I was extremely surprised to see the -100 food change, which just seems lazy and not the way to go about it, and not see cuir nerfs.

It would also help with ultra-late game and preventing insane late-game booming with multiple tc's.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

-100f barely ruins anything. If it wasn't for the fact that you need to keep 2 more cdbs on food early on (on 200f start) it would be a shadow nerf.
Cdb train time and/or cost can be more impactful than that. French mid-late game good eco is not something to nerf as its their strenght.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

3.00 is not impossible at all, I even once aged at 2:59 with ger. Just depends on how fast you gather the starting food crates. If you start first cdb at 6 seconds, and click age 2 with zero idle time after that, you will age at 3:00.
Either way, 100w 100g 200f doesn't only mean that you will have less VS spent on gathering time (because 100g is worth more than 100f), but also that you're very likely to get hunt dogs faster. Also it's much better to have coin treasures in base when you have 100g start because you need 75g, while you need only 50g on 300f 100w.
With ger for example, 200f 100w 100g typically means 5 sec idle time with a small treas that you realistically get every game (like 40w, 50g, 60f, or sth like that), while 300f 100w is 10 sec idle time with same treas.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Ye but all of this is trivial because in 99% of games you don't hit colonial button before 3.05 and French can always age with market and 14v regardless of starting conditions.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Tbh you do, in a lot of games I start aging before 3:05. Actually, whenever I age up idleless, I do this. But it's not very important either way.
France can't always 14v and market though. On shit starts like 200f 100g 100w and 300f 100w if you don't find good treasures and/or if your starting hunts are not very close to tc you might have to age 15, or age 14 with a lot of idle time (like 15 seconds or even more) which is probs worse.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

You always find treasures on EP. And in any case French early market is still superior to other civs, without any apparent drawback.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well with nat scout it's easier to get treas, but no always enough to have a good age up time. And I don't see why french early market would be better ? 200f isn't even enough for 2 cdbs. I can't see why it would be better than brit early market (who get +100w) or ger early market (who can train 2 vils from 200f while france can't)
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Because cdbs move faster and they train slower (and they're 5) so you get housed two vills later. Also the hunting dogs naturally affects more vills from the start (and you already start with 6.25 vills).
Brits can't really market with 200f 200w (they can with 300f 200w I guess but that's rather easy for 300w 100f French too), they would need to chop way too much wood and delay the manor (or delay the market which is also bad). Brits 300w is obviously the equivalent of French 200w so doesn't count. In any case brit market is also rather easy if the aim is 17v age up which is already a little concession in the current meta. Germans get housed earlier and basically have same crates as French so they definitely don't do it better.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by knusch »

have u played french recently, garja?
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Last game I played on the re, I had a gold start, I didn't get any treasures and still managed to age 13 with hunting dogs, no way you can't age 14 lol.
This nerf is to prevent the 13 age up and make France a harder civ to play because now you need some macro to execute your bo.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by knusch »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Last game I played on the re, I had a gold start, I didn't get any treasures and still managed to age 13 with hunting dogs, no way you can't age 14 lol.
This nerf is to prevent the 13 age up and make France a harder civ to play because now you need some macro to execute your bo.


would highly appreciate if u could spent idk 20-30 mins tryin the different cratestarts now and show me the recs of 14v age up (market/hd or tp)....
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

If tp + 14v age up wouldnt work anymore that'd only be better. Early tp is so ridiculous.
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Re: French Discussion Thread

Post by HeatitUP_ »

I think instead of 600 wood, Germans need to ship palatine settlements so they really don't have to worry about losing houses. Germans used to pwn France and I think they still do because of shipments and they always have more army mass. The only downside is the slow age for Germans but with two free ulhan and treasures it's always better.
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