Sioux Discussion Thread

[zoom]

@zoom what would prevent sioux from being trash like they are on RE with your changes?

On most maps, teepees don't actually bring you a ton of resources, since at some point there are no more res in range of your teepees. I didn't do the maths, but I don't think the extra resources you got from your teepees, until the point where no more resources are in range, is huge. It's probably around 1000-1500 resources at minute 10, for an investment of 6 teepees (300w). And 5% makes the resources come in a bit faster, but at the end of the day, the amount of extra resources you got is unchanged.
Who would invest a shipment into that? It means you would need to destroy your bo to send that card, that actually would take really long to (barely) pay off, compared to a standard crates shipment for example. Plus, you can't start building teepees in transition to colo, since you need to send that card. So you start enjoying your teepees a bit late.
And what if you get rushed? Can you afford to send that long-term card? Probably not. Can you defend a strong rush without teepees (same situation as on RE, but with weaker BR and stronger cetans)? Probably not. So Sioux would probably still be too weak against strong musk rushes.

What makes teepees really good atm is that your base (and later on, your resources) becomes way harder to push, while your build becomes slightly faster. They're not too good because they give an insane eco boost. So why remove that feature? And on top of -1 vil, too.

I think the new Sioux design is fine. We just need to tweak the numbers. The hp boost definitely needs to be reduced. The gathering boost could probably be 3%. Just tweak the numbers, basically. But it needs testing.

Teepee base (hitpoints) aura range is 50% higher than on RE (radius; area is even greater), which makes them a lot more viable in the early game. Apart from that, you would have at least two good investment options in "Aggressive Policy" and "Friendly Territory", rather than starting the game with the gather-rate aura.

The "Five Villagers" thing isn't a big deal and could easily be kept. I just don't think it's at all necessary with the new options available.

[Hazza54321]

teepees are supposed to built aggressively in fights anyway not as a campy eco boost

[zoom]

teepees are supposed to built aggressively in fights anyway not as a campy eco boost

While I agree, I also agree with Garja in that they are supposed to help your base defence, given the lack of walls and Sioux's struggles in that regard. The way things are currently, though, definitely isn't healthy for the game.

[Hazza54321]

teepees are supposed to built aggressively in fights anyway not as a campy eco boost

While I agree, I also agree with Garja in that they are supposed to help your base defence, given the lack of walls and Sioux's struggles in that regard. The way things are currently, though, definitely isn't healthy for the game.

also true, but not as they are now with the aura range and the frequency of building them

[Garja]

- keep 5 vill buff
- keep teepee range buff
- keep cetan buff and BR nerf
- "mustang" card cost discount for cav from 10% to 15%

- revert teepee HP to 300 but the cost now is 25w.
- remove eco boost from default and add it to the "green" teepee card (as well as increasing the teepee limit to 12). Eco boost will be 4% non stackable.
- add a gathering boost to 6% (+2%) with the "blue" teepee card as well as unlocking the attack boost (% can be tweaked for HP and attack if needed).
- remove the ability to build teepees with infantry units by default. Give it back to the "aggressive policy" card.

Posted this earlier, I'm gonna try to explain why.

5 vill buff
Simply the easiest not game changing eco buff. Only reason to not keep I can see is that other civs like Otto and Dutch have 4v card too and somehow they share same mid game oriented design (passive eco bonus and not great late game eco respectively).
Both Iro and Aztecs have a 5v card so why not Sioux.

Teepee range buff
It can be tweaked but RE value is totally trash. In order to make teepees a somewhat dominant mechanic in Sioux play the range must be relatively good. Note that range per se isn't abusable. Abusability still depends on the number of teepees and thus on resource spent on that feature.

Cetan and Br changes
RE bow riders are objectively too good (thanks to buffs they received back then). RE Cetans are not that bad within teepee range but they're pretty underwhelming outside of it. Those changes seem fair and they do serve a purpose.

Mustang card buff
A way to buff Sioux eco without adding more arbitrary features. The card is unique to this civ and it respects the mid-game oriented design, because the effect is a resource discount one and not a gathering boost.
Also the timing with which this card comes into play coincides with the moment Sioux start running out of steam so I think it's ideal (up to that point Sioux has already ways to win games).

Revert teepee HP and lower cost to 25w
The reason of this is to preserve the original idea of teepees being very useful but fragile. Right now with 800hp they're basically unkillable because it's too risky to stay in Sioux base for that long, wasting ROF on siege animation. Basically 300hp ensured the possibility to kill teepees before Sioux army comes back to defend the base. The value can be tweaked to 500hp or something like that. 800hp is objectivelly too much tho.
Because they will be again more fragile and because their usefulness will be partially reverted it seems appropriate to lower the cost to make them viable. Again the value can be tweaked according to what feels adequate.

Remove the default eco boost and add it to the "green" teepee card
Eco boost from default doesn't fit Sioux design and also it is simply too good. Sioux already has a passive eco bonus which is the free pop space. As long as units are being produced that's actually a quite strong eco bonus (realistically a 700-800w discount for the first 10 minutes of the game).
Any further eco boost is something completely arbitrary based on the assumption that Sioux can't otherwise compete in the current meta. This assumption shoud be subject of verification because currently there are no real Sioux players that can abuse the original civ features to their full extent.
In any case the eco boost should be a way to make Sioux more competitive later on, or alternatively in the early game but sacrificing the ability to play actively. In other words, a card should be required to unlock this ability so that it becomes a specific strategic choice.

Add a gathering rate upgrade to the "blue" teepee card
Because the default ghatering boost has proven to be too strong it should be nerfed. To make things a bit more in favor of Sioux an extra gathering boost can be placed on another card. The most appropriate card seems the other teepee card which also unlock the attack boost ability.

Remove the ability to build teepees with infantry units by default. Give it back to the "aggressive policy" card.
This ability is both too strong and also it makes "aggressive policy" card useless. It makes sense to revert it to the RE status. Sioux aggressive policy card is probably the only card of thaat type to be somewhat viable.

[QueenOfdestiny]

I don't understand

The first paragraph is the changes I'm proposing. The second is what the total difference would be from RE to EP5. The Third is what the difference is, currently.

Is there anything in particular I can help explain?

You are very cute!
Its time...

[spanky4ever]

Every time Sioux stand a fair chanse of competing with Nilla civs, the debate of nerfing them blushes up. Goongoon won 4-1 with sioux, and I think Kaiser won 2-2 with them in the tournament (not quite sure). Other than that, there where not a lot of sioux games.
Goongoon is very good with them, and I really dont think other players would have same "luck" playing them.

If there should be a solid trend that sioux are proven OP in the future, when more ppl play them on a regular basis, I would surely think a debate on nerfing them would be correct. As of now, it surely is pathetic

[zoom]

Thanks for the feedback. Updated my original post to feature 5 Villagers shipment and decreasing Teepee hitpoints.

[zoom]

Every time Sioux stand a fair chanse of competing with Nilla civs, the debate of nerfing them blushes up. Goongoon won 4-1 with sioux, and I think Kaiser won 2-2 with them in the tournament (not quite sure). Other than that, there where not a lot of sioux games.
Goongoon is very good with them, and I really dont think other players would have same "luck" playing them.

If there should be a solid trend that sioux are proven OP in the future, when more ppl play them on a regular basis, I would surely think a debate on nerfing them would be correct. As of now, it surely is pathetic

Every good player whose opinion I know thinks they are overpowered. If nothing else, the current Teepee mechanic is broken. Certainly it would still be the case that they are significantly buffed.

[spanky4ever]

@zoom every good player you know fear them now, prolly - but do they have experience playing them - AT ALL?? Why is it that good players are so eager to nerf sioux anyway? Cos they fear their raiding potentials prolly, and it interfear with their booming. Not a good reason for nerfing them down to a point where they are not played anymore, and not competable.

[princeofkabul]

teepees are supposed to built aggressively in fights anyway not as a campy eco boost

While I agree, I also agree with Garja in that they are supposed to help your base defence, given the lack of walls and Sioux's struggles in that regard. The way things are currently, though, definitely isn't healthy for the game.

The problem is that siox is hard to rush now cause of the teepees, and cause cetan are actually good now. Starving is also futile if siox smartly ships 15 bisons and maybe if given time ages up with bisons aswell.

[Hazza54321]

partly of nerfing sioux is that you gave an all in unkillable unit civ and economy, imagine giving RE otto an eco

[zoom]

@zoom every good player you know fear them now, prolly - but do they have experience playing them - AT ALL?? Why is it that good players are so eager to nerf sioux anyway? Cos they fear their raiding potentials prolly, and it interfear with their booming. Not a good reason for nerfing them down to a point where they are not played anymore, and not competable.

Who is even talking about nerfing them to a point where they are not competitive? No one wants to do that.

[spanky4ever]

@princeofkabul the fact that sioux are hard to rush now, are a good think IMO. Before Brits and India, etc etc, could just run for their TC, - resulting in game over very fast. They dont have walls to protect them, so tipees is a very nice option now.

[spanky4ever]

@zoom every good player you know fear them now, prolly - but do they have experience playing them - AT ALL?? Why is it that good players are so eager to nerf sioux anyway? Cos they fear their raiding potentials prolly, and it interfear with their booming. Not a good reason for nerfing them down to a point where they are not played anymore, and not competable.

Who is even talking about nerfing them to a point where they are not competitive? No one wants to do that.

If you say so? What I would suggest, is that there should be much more games played, - before establishing a "fact" that they are OP now.

[zoom]

I never said it's a fact. I said every good player apparantly thinks they are overpowered. That would be your fact.

[spanky4ever]

I never said it's a fact. I said every good player apparantly thinks they are overpowered. That would be your fact.

yeah, exactement. Its not an established fact, merly that good players fear them more now, and they cannot rush them easely, - and they are not familiar with them yet. That is my guess anyways

[zoom]

My suggestion to change Sioux for EP5:

– Teepee default gather-rate aura (with a base of 4%, stackable) removed. All auras' range reduced from 24 to 18. Hitpoints decreased from 800 to 500.
– "Aggressive Policy" home-city shipment changed from +2pp gather-rate aura effect to activating attack aura and all auras' range increased from 18 to 24.
– "Friendly Territory" home-city shipment changed from activating attack aura to activating gather-rate aura (with a base of 5%, stackable) within range 18 for each Teepee.
– Nomadic Expansion changes reverted (build limit increase restored from 6 to 10).

Resulting in the following changes from RE:

– "4 Villagers" home-city shipment increased to 5 Villagers.
– Cetan Bow hitpoints increased to 100 (up from 90) and speed increased to 4.5 (up from 4).
– Wakina Rifle speed increased to 4.5 (up from 4).
– Bow Rider hitpoints decreased to 220 (down from 250).
– Teepee base hitpoints increased to 500 (up from 300); build limit decreased from 10 to 6; now buildable by War Hut units. Base (hitpoints) aura range increased from 12 to 18.
– "Aggressive Policy" home-city shipment no longer allows War Hut units to build Teepees; now instead activates attack aura and increases all auras' range from 18 to 24.
– "Friendly Territory" home-city shipment no longer activates attack aura. Now instead adds a gather-rate aura (with a base of 5% within range 18, stackable) to each Teepee.

As opposed to:

Bow Rider hitpoints decreased to 220 (down from 250).
Cetan Bow hitpoints increased to 100 (up from 90) and speed increased to 4.5 (up from 4).
4 Villagers home-city shipment removed.
5 Villagers home-city shipment added to the Colonial Age (note: added as a separate shipment, not a changed version of the 4 Villagers one — has to be unlocked manually).
Teepee base hitpoints increased to 800 (up from 300).
Teepee gather rate aura boost added (4% per Teepee, range 24).
Teepee hitpoints aura maximum range increased to 24 (up from 12).
War Clubs’, Cetan Bows’ and Wakina Rifles’ ability to build Teepees by default added.
Aggressive Policy home-city shipment effect changed — increases the Teepees’ gather rate aura boost to 6% (up from 4%).
Teepee build limit decreased to 6 (down from 10).
Nomadic Expansion home-city shipment effect changed — increases Teepees’ build limit by 6 (down from 10).
Wakina Rifle speed increased to 4.5 (up from 4).

Lite version, if you are adverse to change and keen on maintaining the mess that is the Sioux patch notes:

Teepee all auras' range decreased from 24 to 20. Hitpoints decreased from 800 to 500.

[spanky4ever]

surely good points, I guess. But how can you know anything, with this little play? That is all I am saying

[zoom]

I don't know shit, personally. I give a certain amount of credit to people who have used the civilization quite a bit on EP4, is all.

[Gichtenlord]

surely good points, I guess. But how can you know anything, with this little play? That is all I am saying

Because people take practice games into consideration, too?

[spanky4ever]

surely good points, I guess. But how can you know anything, with this little play? That is all I am saying

Because people take practice games into consideration, too?

could b that works for you as "evidence" - but it is not good enough for me! Thus far there have been very few games played with them, and only 3 players in the later games. So, I will need alot more evidence to jugde weather they are good or TOO good

[Gichtenlord]

You are only arguing like this, because you are heavily biased towards sioux

[Garja]

Well it's a fact that gathering boosts in the order of 60% or even 101% (with 12 teepees after the card boost) are way out of the norm for this game.
Also, for someone who played Sioux for quite a while through different patches it is crystal clear that current Sioux are OP. That is if you also have a good picture of the overall balance of the current patch.

[Kaiserklein]

@spanky4ever Sioux are OP. I have played quite a lot with them, and quite a lot against them. Whenever I lost with them, it was basically either because I misplayed, or because I played against brits. And whenever I beat them was because my opponent misplayed, I think.
Next time I stream games against a good player, I'll try to remember to pick Sioux and I'll send you the link.