Sioux Discussion Thread

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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by spanky4ever »

gamevideo113 wrote:
momuuu wrote:And just compare them to aenna:
With hunting dogs and placer mines:
A sepoy would have:
~1.26 hp/villager second
~0.175 damage/villager second
A musketeer would have:
~1.26 hp/villager second
~0.1932 damage/villager second
A bow rider, with hunting dogs and placer mines, would have
~1.127 hp/villagersecond
~0.1802 damage/villager second
~0.3604 damage/villager second against cav
A cav archer would have
~1.331 hp/villagersecond
~0.1306 damage/villager second
~0.3917 damage/villager second against cav

The thing is that even if these numbers look similar, bow riders are almost twice as fast as musks and they have 2x vs vills which is just insane. Speed is not taken into account with this comparison. And also you can see yourself that the BR dps is basically 50% higher in comparison to a cav archer, which btw is a fortress age unit and has a way longer animation. Arguing that BR weren't too strong on RE is a bit silly imo, but speaking of sioux in general i agree. I'm not a fan of the direction taken by EP in regards to sioux. Cetan buff, 5v buff, BR nerf and a more conservative TP buff would be better than the current state imo. Then you'd also have more options like
mustangs buff/onikare buff or something else to refine the whole thing, but the general idea should be more simple.

momuuu took in concideration that sioux have placer mines - THEY DO NOT - sioux have to send an extra card, or make a 400 wood farm, + the 100 wood and the 100 gold to upgrade the hunting - so the comparisons are not fair. Sioux do not have placermins as an option on the trade marked!!!!!! If they did. it could be a totally different story. Sioux only get the first upgrades for hunting and gold.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

iwillspankyou wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:
momuuu wrote:And just compare them to aenna:
With hunting dogs and placer mines:
A sepoy would have:
~1.26 hp/villager second
~0.175 damage/villager second
A musketeer would have:
~1.26 hp/villager second
~0.1932 damage/villager second
A bow rider, with hunting dogs and placer mines, would have
~1.127 hp/villagersecond
~0.1802 damage/villager second
~0.3604 damage/villager second against cav
A cav archer would have
~1.331 hp/villagersecond
~0.1306 damage/villager second
~0.3917 damage/villager second against cav

The thing is that even if these numbers look similar, bow riders are almost twice as fast as musks and they have 2x vs vills which is just insane. Speed is not taken into account with this comparison. And also you can see yourself that the BR dps is basically 50% higher in comparison to a cav archer, which btw is a fortress age unit and has a way longer animation. Arguing that BR weren't too strong on RE is a bit silly imo, but speaking of sioux in general i agree. I'm not a fan of the direction taken by EP in regards to sioux. Cetan buff, 5v buff, BR nerf and a more conservative TP buff would be better than the current state imo. Then you'd also have more options like
mustangs buff/onikare buff or something else to refine the whole thing, but the general idea should be more simple.

momuuu took in concideration that sioux have placer mines - THEY DO NOT - sioux have to send an extra card, or make a 400 wood fard + the 100 wood and the 100 gold to upgrade the hunting - so the comparisons are not fair. Sioux do not have placerminds as an option on the trade marked!!!!!! If they did. it could be a totally different story. Sioux only get the first upgrades for hunting and gold.

Sioux do have placer mines, they don't have steel traps though which I in fact didn't take into consideration.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by spanky4ever »

yeah. right - and that is a big difference, @momuuu sorry for mixing the concepts :P But this is the reason why teepee carnimatas are needed
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

momuuu wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:1 single shipment being 20% better than its counterpart for other civs is a marginal difference; having a unit with probably the highest dps in colonial after abus and the highest mobility considering the warchief, is not really a neglectable thing for a civ.

They have worse dps than musketeers..

Damage per second or damage per shot? :hmm:
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

BR don't have x2 vs vills. They have no bonus nor penalties.
Also Sioux are farly strong civ on RE. Definitely top 6-7.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

gamevideo113 wrote:
momuuu wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:1 single shipment being 20% better than its counterpart for other civs is a marginal difference; having a unit with probably the highest dps in colonial after abus and the highest mobility considering the warchief, is not really a neglectable thing for a civ.

They have worse dps than musketeers..

Damage per second or damage per shot? :hmm:

Per second per cost. Instead of throwing skepticism and falsehoods out there you can actually just run the numbers yourself.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

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momuuu wrote:
deadrising78 wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Sioux is defenitly not overpowered but br is. Try playing some sioux instead of doing maths and you will see br is op

I know how strong bow riders are. I also know how weak sioux is because I've also played the civ. Bow riders are basically sioux's civ feature. Otherwise they're a weak basic civ. I think the no houses requirement is compensated by the fact that they start with 5 vills, and then they just have basic age ups (in practise just 400w and fast age up), bow riders instead of musketeers, weak xbows, decent pikes and sorta average cav. No steel traps, only a 4v shipment as eco option, can't really use 700w, bad skirms, only 1 skirm shipment, no real good goon shipments and ofc no minutemen. And then they of course have the big button. If you'd strip france of all civ bonuses, gave them bow riders instead of musketeers/dragoons and a big button, they'd be a slightly stronger sioux basically. Bow riders are sioux's thingy so it can be OP. In theory, manors are the most OP thing ever. A 3 SW + 2 uhlan shipment is ridiculous. Aging up with a free agra fort and 2 sepoy is ridiculous. Aging up with some tower that provides 8 villagers is insane. Strelets are insane, getting extra shipments is insane.. All civs have a thing that is OP compared to the standard, and thus no civ is OP; having some OP thing is basically the norm for any civ, and for sioux that is the bow rider. Nothing wrong with that.

Kaiserklein wrote:@momuuu 2 xbows vs 1 BR is a pretty even fight, even though xbows (and other kinds of bows) are supposed to beat RC harder than regular RI, because they have a higher base attack and a low multiplier against HI, but the same multiplier against RI. Like the 2 bows barely win it, by 1 shot or so. So garja is right, bows don't really counter BRs.

I tested 10 bow riders vs 19 xbows (even cost) with and without microing the bow riders and 15 bow riders vs 28 xbows (xbows costing less) also both with and without micro, and xbows won these fights pretty convincingly. Even if you spawn bowriders in range of the xbows, the xbows will win. I also microed it perfectly one time where the bowriders where clicked as close to the xbows as possible forcing as many as possible in melee range and the xbows still won it easily.


Sioux isn't weak. If you had played the civ enough you'd know this.

On re even with sioux id be confident in 10 out of 13 mus.
I'd only dread india, ports and otto. Most ppl dont know how to play vs sioux anyway. And they have many creative options available. Some mus are hard. Some are easy. Its like any other civ.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

Honestly I think if fleshed out enough Sioux could win every single mu. Being able to take or not take any fight at any time is just a huge advantage that most people who play Sioux don’t seem to abuse
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by TheFrozenStrelet »

The Calvary are way way to fast.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

umeu wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

I know how strong bow riders are. I also know how weak sioux is because I've also played the civ. Bow riders are basically sioux's civ feature. Otherwise they're a weak basic civ. I think the no houses requirement is compensated by the fact that they start with 5 vills, and then they just have basic age ups (in practise just 400w and fast age up), bow riders instead of musketeers, weak xbows, decent pikes and sorta average cav. No steel traps, only a 4v shipment as eco option, can't really use 700w, bad skirms, only 1 skirm shipment, no real good goon shipments and ofc no minutemen. And then they of course have the big button. If you'd strip france of all civ bonuses, gave them bow riders instead of musketeers/dragoons and a big button, they'd be a slightly stronger sioux basically. Bow riders are sioux's thingy so it can be OP. In theory, manors are the most OP thing ever. A 3 SW + 2 uhlan shipment is ridiculous. Aging up with a free agra fort and 2 sepoy is ridiculous. Aging up with some tower that provides 8 villagers is insane. Strelets are insane, getting extra shipments is insane.. All civs have a thing that is OP compared to the standard, and thus no civ is OP; having some OP thing is basically the norm for any civ, and for sioux that is the bow rider. Nothing wrong with that.

Kaiserklein wrote:@momuuu 2 xbows vs 1 BR is a pretty even fight, even though xbows (and other kinds of bows) are supposed to beat RC harder than regular RI, because they have a higher base attack and a low multiplier against HI, but the same multiplier against RI. Like the 2 bows barely win it, by 1 shot or so. So garja is right, bows don't really counter BRs.

I tested 10 bow riders vs 19 xbows (even cost) with and without microing the bow riders and 15 bow riders vs 28 xbows (xbows costing less) also both with and without micro, and xbows won these fights pretty convincingly. Even if you spawn bowriders in range of the xbows, the xbows will win. I also microed it perfectly one time where the bowriders where clicked as close to the xbows as possible forcing as many as possible in melee range and the xbows still won it easily.


Sioux isn't weak. If you had played the civ enough you'd know this.

On re even with sioux id be confident in 10 out of 13 mus.
I'd only dread india, ports and otto. Most ppl dont know how to play vs sioux anyway. And they have many creative options available. Some mus are hard. Some are easy. Its like any other civ.

No way you beat France/brits with RE sioux.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Highly depends on the map. On esoc maps, The mus are not in sioux's favor, but not as bad as most ppl think. If raiding is easier, sioyx does fine on tp maps. Brits can be a tough mu, but there are some quick agression bo's sioux can do to delay the brit boom and to contain them. From there its all about raiding and taking a good big button fight. Key to bb fights is to make sure you have cav combat sent.

Is it hard? Yes. Unwinnable? No.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

momuuu wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Damage per second or damage per shot? :hmm:

Per second per cost. Instead of throwing skepticism and falsehoods out there you can actually just run the numbers yourself.

Well, when i say dps i actually mean dps, not dps/cost. So yeah, they have way higher dps than musks and you can't deny it. The fact that they cost more doesn't mean a lot since as i said they also have higher hp, mobility and rof (less overkill). And they also have a ranged bonus vs cav. Comparing random stats in a vacuum for two completely different units is useless.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Garja wrote:BR don't have x2 vs vills. They have no bonus nor penalties.
Also Sioux are farly strong civ on RE. Definitely top 6-7.

Fair enough, but practically they perform (at least) twice as efficiently against vills compared to other ranged cav, that's what i was trying to say.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

umeu wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

I know how strong bow riders are. I also know how weak sioux is because I've also played the civ. Bow riders are basically sioux's civ feature. Otherwise they're a weak basic civ. I think the no houses requirement is compensated by the fact that they start with 5 vills, and then they just have basic age ups (in practise just 400w and fast age up), bow riders instead of musketeers, weak xbows, decent pikes and sorta average cav. No steel traps, only a 4v shipment as eco option, can't really use 700w, bad skirms, only 1 skirm shipment, no real good goon shipments and ofc no minutemen. And then they of course have the big button. If you'd strip france of all civ bonuses, gave them bow riders instead of musketeers/dragoons and a big button, they'd be a slightly stronger sioux basically. Bow riders are sioux's thingy so it can be OP. In theory, manors are the most OP thing ever. A 3 SW + 2 uhlan shipment is ridiculous. Aging up with a free agra fort and 2 sepoy is ridiculous. Aging up with some tower that provides 8 villagers is insane. Strelets are insane, getting extra shipments is insane.. All civs have a thing that is OP compared to the standard, and thus no civ is OP; having some OP thing is basically the norm for any civ, and for sioux that is the bow rider. Nothing wrong with that.

Kaiserklein wrote:@momuuu 2 xbows vs 1 BR is a pretty even fight, even though xbows (and other kinds of bows) are supposed to beat RC harder than regular RI, because they have a higher base attack and a low multiplier against HI, but the same multiplier against RI. Like the 2 bows barely win it, by 1 shot or so. So garja is right, bows don't really counter BRs.

I tested 10 bow riders vs 19 xbows (even cost) with and without microing the bow riders and 15 bow riders vs 28 xbows (xbows costing less) also both with and without micro, and xbows won these fights pretty convincingly. Even if you spawn bowriders in range of the xbows, the xbows will win. I also microed it perfectly one time where the bowriders where clicked as close to the xbows as possible forcing as many as possible in melee range and the xbows still won it easily.


Sioux isn't weak. If you had played the civ enough you'd know this.

On re even with sioux id be confident in 10 out of 13 mus.
I'd only dread india, ports and otto. Most ppl dont know how to play vs sioux anyway. And they have many creative options available. Some mus are hard. Some are easy. Its like any other civ.

I don't get this. I'm not talking about if sioux is strong or weak in my post at all. I just said that Bow riders and the BB are the special strong things for sioux and that they are otherwise a shitty civ. That's the point I wanted to make at least. I couldn't give a shit if sioux was weak or strong, it's about the design choices the EP team made with regards to them that bother me, and the fact that people spread this completely empty statement of 'bow riders are too strong' which has zero meaning without context.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

momuuu wrote:
umeu wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Sioux isn't weak. If you had played the civ enough you'd know this.

On re even with sioux id be confident in 10 out of 13 mus.
I'd only dread india, ports and otto. Most ppl dont know how to play vs sioux anyway. And they have many creative options available. Some mus are hard. Some are easy. Its like any other civ.

I don't get this. I'm not talking about if sioux is strong or weak in my post at all. I just said that Bow riders and the BB are the special strong things for sioux and that they are otherwise a shitty civ. That's the point I wanted to make at least. I couldn't give a shit if sioux was weak or strong, it's about the design choices the EP team made with regards to them that bother me, and the fact that people spread this completely empty statement of 'bow riders are too strong' which has zero meaning without context.


you said

I also know how weak sioux is because I've also played the civ.

i agree with you on the choices.

but the statement bow riders WERE too strong wasn't made without context. It's made in the context of RE, and based on experience MANY top players had playing with or against sioux. BR are not in the abus range of OP, but I don't think the nerf was as questionable as you made it out to be.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by fei123456 »

Otto can beat sioux but it's not an easy MU. You need to do exactly the right thing at the right time to win this.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

gamevideo113 wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

Per second per cost. Instead of throwing skepticism and falsehoods out there you can actually just run the numbers yourself.

Well, when i say dps i actually mean dps, not dps/cost. So yeah, they have way higher dps than musks and you can't deny it. The fact that they cost more doesn't mean a lot since as i said they also have higher hp, mobility and rof (less overkill). And they also have a ranged bonus vs cav. Comparing random stats in a vacuum for two completely different units is useless.

So, Howdahs should be nerfed? I'm not the one randomly comparing things in a vacuum here, I'm saying that Bow riders can be too strong because the sioux civ is not strong without them. You and other people are comparing Bow riders in some empty vacuum where they are 'too strong'. If you then actually take other units in a vacuum and show that bow riders would lose to musketeers cost effectively, then suddenly we have to look at the bigger picture? That seems awfully arbitrary.

Let's actually look at some facts: Sioux, in practise, was probably not overpowered. Sioux needed bow riders to be strong. There's clear evidence for this, just look at the patch changes needed after the bow rider nerf:
[spoiler=sioux changes]
[*]Bow Rider hitpoints decreased to 220 (down from 250).
[*]Cetan Bow hitpoints increased to 100 (up from 90) and speed increased to 4.5 (up from 4).
[*]4 Villagers home-city shipment removed.
[*]5 Villagers home-city shipment added to the Colonial Age (note: added as a separate shipment, not a changed version of the 4 Villagers one — has to be unlocked manually).
[*]Teepee base hitpoints increased to 600 (up from 300).
[*]Teepee gather rate aura boost added (3% per Teepee, range 24).
[*]Teepee hitpoints aura maximum range increased to 18 (up from 12).
[*]War Clubs’, Cetan Bows’ and Wakina Rifles’ ability to build Teepees by default added.
[*]Aggressive Policy home-city shipment effect changed — increases the Teepees’ gather rate aura boost to 5%.
[*]War Chief “heavy cavalry” unit-tag added.
[/spoiler]

Maybe sioux was too strong on RE, they surely were too weak after straight up nerfing the bow rider like that. First of all, I sincerely doubt sioux was too strong on RE if played on EP maps - never have I seen anyone actually complain about RE sioux balance wise. I get a strong feeling of many people having looked at bow riders either in a vacuum or by pure bias (just read goodspeed's TAD guide for reference). I don't even care about whether they were too strong or too weak. The bow rider nerf wasn't appropriate, and instead of keeping them nerfed and then starting to change everything that made sioux sioux, this change should have been reconsidered - either reverted or toned down by a lot. This is by far the biggest failure of EP - nerfing a unit based on some idle arguments and bias and in the process removing one of the big defining aspects of the civ. Sioux on RE are defined by bow riders. Making bow riders just another standardized unit is insane - especially if there are very few tangible balance considerations with regards to this decision. You can try to look at bow riders only in the vacuum that's specifically beneficial for your cause, but if you look at the bigger picture I don't see how the entire course of balancing with regards to sioux can be justified other than by pure bias. It's sad and I wish I could play RE Sioux on EP - a unique civ with a unique style that was simply removed from the game.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by fei123456 »

momuuu wrote:I'm saying that Bow riders can be too strong because the sioux civ is not strong without them.

Why don't we buff sioux a bit in ep? Like, give wakina 20 range (it shouldn't be too op), or remove the melee cav tag from rifle riders (so they can be used as normal goon unit).
I don't get the necessarity that rifle riders should be hard countered by goons.

It's always hard to balance sioux cuz they have the fastest army in the game, and INSANE raiding/base trade. If they're buffed a bit they become quite OP and annoying. Reduce the warchief aura to 10% may be a good idea.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

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momuuu wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:Well, when i say dps i actually mean dps, not dps/cost. So yeah, they have way higher dps than musks and you can't deny it. The fact that they cost more doesn't mean a lot since as i said they also have higher hp, mobility and rof (less overkill). And they also have a ranged bonus vs cav. Comparing random stats in a vacuum for two completely different units is useless.

So, Howdahs should be nerfed? I'm not the one randomly comparing things in a vacuum here, I'm saying that Bow riders can be too strong because the sioux civ is not strong without them. You and other people are comparing Bow riders in some empty vacuum where they are 'too strong'. If you then actually take other units in a vacuum and show that bow riders would lose to musketeers cost effectively, then suddenly we have to look at the bigger picture? That seems awfully arbitrary.
Letting units fight in the scenario editor is not a good way to determine balance. You are neglecting speed, population space, civ specific bonuses and other factors like training time and so on.
Let's actually look at some facts: Sioux, in practise, was probably not overpowered.
I don't recall anyone saying that.
Sioux needed bow riders to be strong. There's clear evidence for this, just look at the patch changes needed after the bow rider nerf:
[spoiler=sioux changes]
[*]Bow Rider hitpoints decreased to 220 (down from 250).
[*]Cetan Bow hitpoints increased to 100 (up from 90) and speed increased to 4.5 (up from 4).
[*]4 Villagers home-city shipment removed.
[*]5 Villagers home-city shipment added to the Colonial Age (note: added as a separate shipment, not a changed version of the 4 Villagers one — has to be unlocked manually).
[*]Teepee base hitpoints increased to 600 (up from 300).
[*]Teepee gather rate aura boost added (3% per Teepee, range 24).
[*]Teepee hitpoints aura maximum range increased to 18 (up from 12).
[*]War Clubs’, Cetan Bows’ and Wakina Rifles’ ability to build Teepees by default added.
[*]Aggressive Policy home-city shipment effect changed — increases the Teepees’ gather rate aura boost to 5%.
[*]War Chief “heavy cavalry” unit-tag added.
[/spoiler]
That's your opinion though. If you think that sioux should be a civ with an OP bow rider and just rely on that for most match ups then i respect your opinion, but the problem is that it is not a good way to balance a civ and to make the civ interesting and enjoyable to play. Giving sioux a more well rounded feel should be a priority in EP and that has been achieved to an extent, probably even overdone with the karnimateepees. Regardless, it's not like bow riders are a weak unit now. If you consider a team game situation, the nerf is probably even more legit.
Maybe sioux was too strong on RE, they surely were too weak after straight up nerfing the bow rider like that.
This simply proves that the reliance of the civ on that single unit was not a good design element. I think you might not agree though, considering your opposition to the sepoy nerf of the last iteration of EP. If that were to be the case, then i just think that your views on the game's balance are too controversial to be accepted for a public version of a balance patch. You like things to be balanced in a specific way but i fear most people wouldn't like your approach, and there would be little point in what ESOC is doing with EP if the changes were being all made arbitrarily by a single person. Which is also kind of what EP is being accused of, for some of the changes (karnimateepees again). I don't think you're completely wrong, RE sioux were not a balance abomination, rather a design abomination, perhaps.
First of all, I sincerely doubt sioux was too strong on RE if played on EP maps - never have I seen anyone actually complain about RE sioux balance wise. I get a strong feeling of many people having looked at bow riders either in a vacuum or by pure bias (just read goodspeed's TAD guide for reference). I don't even care about whether they were too strong or too weak. The bow rider nerf wasn't appropriate, and instead of keeping them nerfed and then starting to change everything that made sioux sioux, this change should have been reconsidered - either reverted or toned down by a lot. This is by far the biggest failure of EP - nerfing a unit based on some idle arguments and bias and in the process removing one of the big defining aspects of the civ. Sioux on RE are defined by bow riders. Making bow riders just another standardized unit is insane - especially if there are very few tangible balance considerations with regards to this decision. You can try to look at bow riders only in the vacuum that's specifically beneficial for your cause, but if you look at the bigger picture I don't see how the entire course of balancing with regards to sioux can be justified other than by pure bias. It's sad and I wish I could play RE Sioux on EP - a unique civ with a unique style that was simply removed from the game.
You keep mixing the balancing of bow riders and sioux though. The point is that on RE bow riders were unbalanced and sioux were balanced, obviously on EP with the bow rider nerf only sioux would have become too weak, so they have been given some other stuff like 5v, cetan buff to make up for the BR nerf and there is nothing wrong with that. The goal is to achieve both unit and civ balance.

As i said, overall i agree, the approach on sioux should have been/should be more conservative, but the specific bow rider issue is not something i can agree on. Why do keshiks need to come with a shitty army and need a card on top of that to be usable? Why do zamburaks need 2 cards to become decent anti-cav? All these age2 ranged cavalry units have big drawbacks that bow riders just don't have, and there is a reason why ranged cavalry is not available in age2 for all civs.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

momuuu wrote:EP Sioux is what you get when you balanced based on a bunch of extremely arbitrary principles that make little sense. It's wonderful isn't it?
You're funny. I'd say it's what you get when you consider RE Bow Riders and economy broken, making Teepees a viable feature in the process.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by spanky4ever »

zoom wrote:
momuuu wrote:EP Sioux is what you get when you balanced based on a bunch of extremely arbitrary principles that make little sense. It's wonderful isn't it?
You're funny. I'd say it's what you get when you consider RE Bow Riders and economy broken, making Teepees a viable feature in the process.

you are right, zoi, but I do not agree that BR had to be nerfed- Did not, and will not ever agree to that, untill you make sioux cav compatible to goons. If you do that, I would think the nerf is OK (I guess) :roll: how about that @momuuu :P
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

zoom wrote:
momuuu wrote:EP Sioux is what you get when you balanced based on a bunch of extremely arbitrary principles that make little sense. It's wonderful isn't it?
You're funny. I'd say it's what you get when you consider RE Bow Riders and economy broken, making Teepees a viable feature in the process.

Sioux eco wasn't that broken with the 5 vills card to be fair. They don't need houses and they also have the 3 TP travois card which can be quite good. It's not a boomy civ in any way but in sup 1v1 i wouldn't consider its eco that terrible compared to iro for example. Subpar eco is an inherent design feature for TWC civs anyway.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Ye the Sioux eco argument is parly overstated. Sioux eco is close to the one of Iros for practical purposes. This means that for the average lenght of a 1v1 game (up to 20 mins at least) they are able to produce as many units as other civs. Sure half of civs outgather them by a fair amount but when considering stuff like: free pop space, better unit shipments, cost efficient units (or rather favorable cost/stats ratio if you prefer) and last but not least almost granted vill raids then the gap is smaller than one generally thinks.
This is why civs like Brits or Japan outscales them badly but they can still win games. Then of course there is a no retunr point where the outscale is just too much but that's another story.

The problem with teepees is that now Sioux get a respectable eco on top of other pre-existent advantages. Also there is clear design issue in the fact that the civ was originally one with the weakest eco (hence requiring damage to stay in the game) while now the eco is basically on par and they don't have to constantly seek for a play anymore.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by spanky4ever »

Garja wrote:Ye the Sioux eco argument is parly overstated. Sioux eco is close to the one of Iros for practical purposes. This means that for the average lenght of a 1v1 game (up to 20 mins at least) they are able to produce as many units as other civs. Sure half of civs outgather them by a fair amount but when considering stuff like: free pop space, better unit shipments, cost efficient units (or rather favorable cost/stats ratio if you prefer) and last but not least almost granted vill raids then the gap is smaller than one generally thinks.
This is why civs like Brits or Japan outscales them badly but they can still win games. Then of course there is a no retunr point where the outscale is just too much but that's another story.

The problem with teepees is that now Sioux get a respectable eco on top of other pre-existent advantages. Also there is clear design issue in the fact that the civ was originally one with the weakest eco (hence requiring damage to stay in the game) while now the eco is basically on par and they don't have to constantly seek for a play anymore.

problem is that no twc are being played much, exeption is aztecks. I would say not being played at all, before the changes they made to the sioux. If you think the eco is fine, then I guess you submit to the European only play off?? and that is quite surpricing to me Garja
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

problem is you gave a civ who wins age 1, insane age 2 and age 3 units, the ability to take a fight whenever they want/mobility, inability to get housed, teepees literally touching eachother in base so more hp on units, and decide to give them an eco, an aura gathering based eco too

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