Sioux Discussion Thread

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Germany yemshi
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by yemshi »

Isn't there a possibility to have range and melee resistance?
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

yemshi wrote:Isn't there a possibility to have range and melee resistance?

Yeah but better just to increase HP by the % of the weaker resist and lower the stronger resist accordingly. I like 2k HP mams :P
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by SiegeDance »

forgrin wrote:The problem with sioux is, frankly, that their composition sucks. Even 3-unit RR + BR + AR loses to skirm-goon badly, and wakina just aren't really a viable option for sioux in late fortress since they lack upgrades, plus sioux eco sucks so your opponent will always have the bigger skirm mass making BR + wakina + RR shit.


That is why RR need a redesign. They are an impractical unit as of now. Wakinas are alright for a cav civ but a slight speed boost to them wouldn't be bad. The light cav tag should be removed from RR, and remove their cav counter too, but give them bonus against all infantry. Increase their hp, and give them ranged resistance.I don't see any other way. And for the eco, they need an infinite bison card, then at least you can stack up some hunting cards in the deck.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by fei123456 »

1.wakina has upgrades in fact. also, dog soldier (big button) and tons of bow riders can beat goon skirm.
2.however, wakina's anti-infantry damage is much worse than rifle rider. RR has 1.5 rof (less damage waste), fast speed (no pathing), 3* heavy infantry, and can share the cav upgrades.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

The main problem with sioux is that the only timing push/game ending move they can make in fortress is dog soldier Big Button, and if you dont win the game with that, they can just wall up and win. Sioux needs better eco and a buff to their fortress age army, and more viable colonial strategies besides heavy raiding and cheesy club/cetan rushes.

The main doctrine with the EP is that they want to make minimal changes with maximum benefit. I would recommend to the team to abandon this doctrine when dealing with Sioux, and other blatantly broken civs (maybe otto and iro). Insofar, all the team has done to approach brokeness has been to nerf the things that the civ abuses (bow riders, abus guns, Aenna mass), but have left the civs with few other options. Balancing Sioux wont be hard, because I think they are not too broken, and that we can balance their abuse-able aspects and keep their play style.

Three things we need to fix:
Sioux Eco
Making heavy raiding a practical and more balanced strategy
Buffing their fortress/very late game potential

Sioux was clearly meant to have either a single-unit or at least a cav-heavy composition. I think balancing around that is viable in colonial, but we definitely need to touch wakina's to fix their age 3.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by deadrising78 »

How about viable tipis?
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by SiegeDance »

How about boost to wakinas rof? But i still think tweaking RR would be better idea than wakinas. And how about boosting teepes los. At least then you can use them as early warning system scout buildings around the main base, could work as workaround for not having walls. And Sioux have three hunting cards, and the farm upgrades also boost their hunting as well as the wise women age up boost, but it's not viable now as hunts will run out. That's their eco design, an infinite bison card would fit right in. No other eco boost is required imo.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by deadrising78 »

SiegeDance wrote:How about boost to wakinas rof? But i still think tweaking RR would be better idea than wakinas. And how about boosting teepes los. At least then you can use them as early warning system scout buildings around the main base, could work as workaround for not having walls. And Sioux have three hunting cards, and the farm upgrades also boost their hunting as well as the wise women age up boost, but it's not viable now as hunts will run out. That's their eco design, an infinite bison card would fit right in. No other eco boost is required imo.

U dont wanna have to build a farm for the hunting upps and the cards are pretty bad, 700 resources for a 20% boost while euro civs get it for 250
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

One of the ideas that been thrown around in the past was to have teepee's increase villager HP, in addition to military units. I think LOS boost would also be a nice little boost to teepee's as well.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by deadrising78 »

Yea boost aura range as well its pretty small right now
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by SiegeDance »

deadrising78 wrote:
SiegeDance wrote:How about boost to wakinas rof? But i still think tweaking RR would be better idea than wakinas. And how about boosting teepes los. At least then you can use them as early warning system scout buildings around the main base, could work as workaround for not having walls. And Sioux have three hunting cards, and the farm upgrades also boost their hunting as well as the wise women age up boost, but it's not viable now as hunts will run out. That's their eco design, an infinite bison card would fit right in. No other eco boost is required imo.

U dont wanna have to build a farm for the hunting upps and the cards are pretty bad, 700 resources for a 20% boost while euro civs get it for 250


The hunting cards are not as a replacement for the 700 resource cards, but as a late game economy option, sorta like when you would send a refrigeration or a royal mint card. Sioux don't need much gold, and the hunting cards combined with an infinite source of hunt would give them good eco I guess. And for farms upgrade you can just make 1 farm for upgrades, and just hunt most of the time. The hunting stacking bonus gets pretty ridiculous infact and finally the wise woman age up would be very viable late game ,all they lack is constant hunts.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by deadrising78 »

SiegeDance wrote:
deadrising78 wrote:
SiegeDance wrote:How about boost to wakinas rof? But i still think tweaking RR would be better idea than wakinas. And how about boosting teepes los. At least then you can use them as early warning system scout buildings around the main base, could work as workaround for not having walls. And Sioux have three hunting cards, and the farm upgrades also boost their hunting as well as the wise women age up boost, but it's not viable now as hunts will run out. That's their eco design, an infinite bison card would fit right in. No other eco boost is required imo.

U dont wanna have to build a farm for the hunting upps and the cards are pretty bad, 700 resources for a 20% boost while euro civs get it for 250


The hunting cards are not as a replacement for the 700 resource cards, but as a late game economy option, sorta like when you would send a refrigeration or a royal mint card. Sioux don't need much gold, and the hunting cards combined with an infinite source of hunt would give them good eco I guess. And for farms upgrade you can just make 1 farm for upgrades, and just hunt most of the time. The hunting stacking bonus gets pretty ridiculous infact and finally the wise woman age up would be very viable late game ,all they lack is constant hunts.

spending 400 wood to build a farm for uppgrades is not something u wanna be doing, i dont know what the upps cost but thats a lot of resources for a 10% food gather uppgrade. There is gonna be hard to find a good time to send a 20% hunting card, most times u are gonna need to send other cards
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by SiegeDance »

It's not the only upgrade farm has. The cavalry hitpoint upgrade is also required. Plus they don't need houses, lots of wood and villager time is saved on that. Right now the priority for cards have been established in a certain way because they lack any late eco option. But if they are to have a possible eco build, hunting would be a good way for them, as they already have cards. As with every eco build, some cards have to be sacrificed. But with sioux, eco build sounds like an oxymoron now. But that can change I think.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by deadrising78 »

I dont think sioux needs a boom, just needs not to have by far the worst eco in the game
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by SiegeDance »

I didn't mean a boom per say. But at least good enough eco to put up a fight in late fortress or past industrial. I don't care if they have the worst eco in the game, but it should be sufficient for their production. That would be boom enough for me I guess.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by pecelot »

yemshi wrote:Isn't there a possibility to have range and melee resistance?

I highly doubt that, although recently I learned that you could play with more comps than there are slots available, so maybe nothing is truly impossible in this game... :hmm:
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Gendarme »

Mamelukes have 1.00 both melee and range resistance; it is just disguised as infinite HP to fool the common player.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by _H2O »

One idea I had for this civ was to change their tc build limit to 2 all game long and reduce their hp and attack and cost significantly to make them more nomadic feeling. Right now the only thing keeping them from being totally fine base trading is the 600 wood tc. Furthermore their base defense already sucks so much with no buildings walls or minutes that it would not hurt their base defense ability much. I think this civ needs something that drastic. It also would give them a way to get more eco too. They wouldn't have an op eco because they have no steel traps etc but it would give them more flexibility.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

_H2O wrote:One idea I had for this civ was to change their tc build limit to 2 all game long and reduce their hp and attack and cost significantly to make them more nomadic feeling. Right now the only thing keeping them from being totally fine base trading is the 600 wood tc. Furthermore their base defense already sucks so much with no buildings walls or minutes that it would not hurt their base defense ability much. I think this civ needs something that drastic. It also would give them a way to get more eco too. They wouldn't have an op eco because they have no steel traps etc but it would give them more flexibility.

I really like this. Maybe 300w TC's with 4k HP and 45 attack? sounds very cool and fun.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by _H2O »

Probably would have to be less so it couldn't be abused as a map control structure but the specific numbers would require testing.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by fei123456 »

sioux vills are not riders lol. and on some maps you cant base-trade easily.
just wall tower attack and gg. and sioux vs japan will become an inpossible match-up.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by deadrising78 »

Couprider wrote:sioux vills are not riders lol. and on some maps you cant base-trade easily.
just wall tower attack and gg. and sioux vs japan will become an inpossible match-up.

So its not already?
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by _H2O »

To be honest I disagree with that post. This helps suiox in the Japan matchup and helps vs walling by allowing suiox to 2 tc boom in colonial if they desire.
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by benj89 »

I like that idea a lot
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Re: Sioux Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

giving sioux a more nomadic feel is a good idea imo. and we had alot of ideas stacked. receiving shipments at explorer is also a way to make it feel more nomadic.

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