Sioux Discussion Thread

[deadrising78]

giving sioux a more nomadic feel is a good idea imo. and we had alot of ideas stacked. receiving shipments at explorer is also a way to make it feel more nomadic.

I like that idea. Any info on when next patch update will come?

[Mr_Bramboy]

Day 3216: Ryan still hasn't learned how to spell Sioux

[momuuu]

If you dont want to make them a bowrider civ (I honestly found pure bowrider spam, however braindead it may have been, kinda fun and unique, kt gave me a reason to play sioux) then I think changing the way the civ works is fine. I mean, nobody plays them (and iro!) as is so in that case a redesign isnt insane.

I think theres not a single serious sioux or iro player atm.

[forgrin]

.

I think theres not a single serious sioux or iro player atm.

Garja plays Iro pretty well, he definitely seems to know their options. I doubt he'd play them in tourney though just because they're so weak.

[DaRkNiTe1698]

They're not so weak, colonial is still good and on fortress they have very good units. Why would you think they're bad? Because no tp? Of course they're not broken anymore, but they're still a good civ to me

[DaRkNiTe1698]

What do you think about this civilisation on RE and on EP on team games? I think they're quite weak honestly, compared to some civs. Units are good but their eco is so bad..

[Papist]

From what I have seen, nothing has been done to help Sioux because nobody plays them enough to know what they need. Their broken unit was nerfed (because it was challenging for other civs to deal with), and they were left untouched otherwise.

[Darwin_]

The only person who plays sioux is Soldier lol.

I would love for them to get a redesign but still make them have a Bowrider spam.

[SiegeDance]

Any kind of single unit spam is lame Imo. Having a strong unit and having a lame unit is different. Bow riders are still strong units but not lame anymore. It shouldn't be changed. It will further make Sioux boring. From a redesign point of view, ideas can be taken from other mods like NE. I like what they had done with Sioux. All the bison cards are infinite, you get bison with every economic shipments, there is a tech that increases the speed and los of villagers, the firepit siege dance causes units speed to decrease based on how many vills are dancing. I think that's a very good idea.

[SiegeDance]

What do you guys think about the windrunner card? I think that card can be buffed, rather than buffing wakinas or their infantry in general. Surely it takes a shipment, but could be made worthwhile I guess. 20% speed boost? I think that would make wakinas really good in fortress and would also make warclubs viable in fortress.

One interesting unit combo sioux can have is warclubs and RR's with a few wakinas support maybe if there are goons. Specially if clubs can be even more speedy than they are now. They have a .20 hand resistance if I'm not mistaken. And they do more damage overall than pikes, great against skirms and less vulnerable to musks in melee than axes and counter hussars too. Normally pikes start becoming obsolete past fortress, but no civ have a unit like RR so maybe worth exploring their viability past fortress. And they have imperial upgrades which other pikes don't except Spain. And they do surprisingly well against goons, more so if they are even faster. Not to mention good siege potential. I could be missing something but they seem like a good unit to mix with sioux army, if they can be even faster. The wood requirement can be a problem, though sioux have good map control potential, and three woodcutting cards. Just thinking about making sioux army composition interesting.

[Mr_Bramboy]

I don't think we should be looking to buff Sioux by buffing their cards and/or units as it limits their options (it forces them to send that buffed card or make that buffed unit every single game). Just my opinion.

[tedere12]

I dont like wakina rifles' 18 range

[Gendarme]

I dont like wakina rifles' 18 range

Imagine if they had 20 range, and the buff from Usain Bolt's aura. Would be OP.

[tedere12]

I dont like wakina rifles' 18 range

Imagine if they had 20 range, and the buff from Usain Bolt's aura. Would be OP.

yeah so game breaking to be actually able to do the skirm war

[Gendarme]

Well, the speed wouldn't matter against other skirms, but against everything else it would be insanely strong. We low level scrubs are too bad at keeping Usain Bolt alive, but other people aren't.

[Darwin_]

They should still have 18 range, but 4.5/4.25 base speed, so they can kite as well as skirms.

[britishmusketeer]

Well, the speed wouldn't matter against other skirms, but against everything else it would be insanely strong. We low level scrubs are too bad at keeping Usain Bolt alive, but other people aren't.

Actually it would only matter against other skirms. Currently wakinas get rekt by skirms due to their extra range however if they were faster they would actually be able to trade with other skirms.

[SiegeDance]

I don't think we should be looking to buff Sioux by buffing their cards and/or units as it limits their options (it forces them to send that buffed card or make that buffed unit every single game). Just my opinion.

That card will still require a shipment, so won't be viable until they have a sizeable infantry army, which is pretty rare. All it would do imo is increase their options. They can choose to go warhuts start and they can atleast hold pushes with the speed buff. As of now, warhut start is kinda meh. I understand they are cavalry civ, but that very idea is restricting imo. French, ports, Brits all have strong cavalry but their infantry isn't shit. Why should sioux have that? Well their army will be mostly cavalry but they don't have to start that way, or shouldn't be restricting when it comes to unit choices. Their colonial is very restricting when it comes to unit composition, and their eco plays part in that too so yeah, just buffing units may not be in the right direction. But giving them a choice via shipment to make their infantry viable can be good imo, as they are primarily cavalry civ.

[Darwin_]

What if sioux was given 7 starting villagers (up from 5), but got one fewer food crate. They almost always seem to have idle time and a weak early game economy, so maybe this could help them out.

[Atomiswave]

What if sioux was given 7 starting villagers (up from 5), but got one fewer food crate. They almost always seem to have idle time and a weak early game economy, so maybe this could help them out.

Thats too drastic, i would rather go for 5 vill shipment and +100f but that still doesn't solve their problems. I think ep team should seriously consider giving them steel traps, because it is the easiest way to painlessly buff their eco. Many will protest because it standardizes the civ, but I think we can all handle a bit of standardization.

[pecelot]

Maybe just a higher base gather rate for hunts as a neat equivalent of Indian and Dutch bonuses?

[SiegeDance]

^ That's a neat idea. I would also like to see some redesigns. Bring teepees more into play, like how important houses are for the rest of the civs. Make it an important part of how the civs be played, one that can't be skipped, like you can't skip a house. That way it would bring a good strategic depth to the civ, based on how it is redesigned. One idea for a redesign i have is to decrease the settlers train speed (Or global gather rates, or military production or all of them!), once the settlers population reach 15 or so, when there is no teepee built. And simultaneously, make teepee increase those rates when they are built by a tiny amount, which when the teepee build limit is reached wouldn't amount to ridiculous gain, but a pretty good eco boost nonetheless. So investing in teepees would give them defensive as well as eco boost, making many different styles of play possible, imo. That would require the cost and the hp of teepee to be adjusted accordingly needless to say. I think something like that would require players to think about logistics, though not as much as the other civs (retaining the population advantage and a less wood dependence overall) but still some and with added benefits, rather than just gather resources, build military structures and just look to raid opponents colony. Which kinda makes the civs uninteresting. One option is to turn teepee into a mini karni, but that wouldn't be as original i guess.

Another idea is to make teepees a more military oriented structure (which it already is but more so), by maybe increasing it's los, or to make the sioux units fighting alongside teepees to gain some resource trickle, don't know if that's even possible though or something else but i don't think sioux has much problems with its military. Though they have some glaringly ill designed units (Rifle Riders, dafaq is this!), or not well implemented (Tashunkes). About rifle riders, i would rather like to see its anti cav removed, as they have BRs. And remove their light cav tag. That would make them a good unit, still counterable, and all in all a good all around ranged cavalry, that you can poke any unit with safely, signifying the cavalry specialization of the civ, and most probably taking the role of axe riders past fortress. But in no way uncounterable. And Tashunkes, well change them in whatever way but please don't keep them the way they are, it's just painful to see a unit so useless.

[pecelot]

yeah, perhaps deleting the heavy cavalry tag from RR would be a good idea...

[Darwin_]

Maybe just a higher base gather rate for hunts as a neat equivalent of Indian and Dutch bonuses?

I really like this. This would be really cool if they also gave them the buff from the ASFP, and give them 2 bison every shipment. What about that idea that H2O had: giving them a 2 town center build limit in age 2? I think we should explore what we can do to buff their economy and keep with their nomadic history and game design.

[Imperial Noob]

Ultimate civ quirk: Give them resources for destroying buildings (now this is ransack).
economy: Give their vills an option to transform into a speed 6.75 cavalry (let them swap stances and get a magical steed like horse artillery operator does) to enable them to travel to and from natural resources safer and more efficiently
early economy: Give them finally their due steel traps and a 5 vil shipment
early defense: Let Teepees boost villager HP and let the Chief boost villager speed.
early offense: Let those bloody bears claw through wooden huts and murder civilians like opris. Blessing them with 30 siege and x1 vs vills would surely make them decent <joke?>

military matters:
(imho optional) Let the Warchief receive shipments
Buff Tashunke Prowlers... poor fellows
Nerf Dog Soldiers' HP
Remove RRs' Heavy Cav tag... this is the most modern unit in the game we are talking about...cmon!
BR Nerf is ok.
From a historical point of view the range nerf for Wakinas is more than reasonable. The Sioux widely ignored iron sights and liked to fight point blanc

So remade Sioux would be more challenging both to play and to play against and have a unique, yet not in a simple"you suck"-way economy.
They would also most probably quite often steal resources and attempt basetrades. Fun!
Now, who would NOT play them?