_H2O wrote:Because it's a low skill civ so it already going to perform better with lower level players. It is not good for the competitiveness of the game for Otto to be tournament viable except as a cheese.
"Low skill civ" only difference is not pressing t-->v every 25 seconds or so, other than that they are pretty normal ( I suppose no macro for food for vills but that's not a big factor). I would hope that doesn't make the difference in competitive games.
Tanks high Hp muskets than train slower cost more and have low attack. Jan abus synergy in one control group. The best ways to play Otto are one ball of Jan abus or make literally only Jan's and ff for 2 falcs and mames. It's a low skill civ.
Garja wrote:400w, fast age up, skirm cards, goon cards, same semis, same stagecoach builds. They also have plenty of features in common it seems. But the problem is more like they play in the same way.
Fre has one goon card, Port - two. Port has skirm cards only in age 4 lol, so although I know that Port games often go up to Industrial, I guess they are pretty irrelevant. Russ also has 400w and fast age up - does it mean they're similar? They also have to produce villagers to create a nice economy, have a Town Center at the beginning and an explorer...
_H2O wrote:Tanks high Hp muskets than train slower cost more and have low attack. Jan abus synergy in one control group. The best ways to play Otto are one ball of Jan abus or make literally only Jan's and ff for 2 falcs and mames. It's a low skill civ.
Then we change them so that they have more ways to play which do take skill. Also this is not at all the right thread to bring this up.
Garja wrote:400w, fast age up, skirm cards, goon cards, same semis, same stagecoach builds. They also have plenty of features in common it seems. But the problem is more like they play in the same way.
Fre has one goon card, Port - two. Port has skirm cards only in age 4 lol, so although I know that Port games often go up to Industrial, I guess they are pretty irrelevant. Russ also has 400w and fast age up - does it mean they're similar? They also have to produce villagers to create a nice economy, have a Town Center at the beginning and an explorer...
Let's not trivialize what I said with obvious facts. Ports and French currently play in the same way in lot of MUs. And by the same way I mewn they pretty much have the same timings.
Garja wrote:400w, fast age up, skirm cards, goon cards, same semis, same stagecoach builds. They also have plenty of features in common it seems. But the problem is more like they play in the same way.
Fre has one goon card, Port - two. Port has skirm cards only in age 4 lol, so although I know that Port games often go up to Industrial, I guess they are pretty irrelevant. Russ also has 400w and fast age up - does it mean they're similar? They also have to produce villagers to create a nice economy, have a Town Center at the beginning and an explorer...
Let's not trivialize what I said with obvious facts. Ports and French currently play in the same way in lot of MUs. And by the same way I mewn they pretty much have the same timings.
You have no clue about the game. They don't have the same timings at all. Actually, as port you should never push unless you're vs japan or dutch xD. Stop with your "port is the new France" bs.
Im pretty sure ports and france have always been similair except that on RE ports are the trash version of france so ports always try somewhat weird things on re (naked ff, fi, and 10/10 if you're aiz).
Jerom wrote:Im pretty sure ports and france have always been similair except that on RE ports are the trash version of france so ports always try somewhat weird things on re (naked ff, fi, and 10/10 if you're aiz).
As someone with over 100 RE port 1v1 games (FML) I can assure the team of the validity of this statement. Ports have similar shipments to France and similar comps (minus 2 falcs), they just have much shittier ways of doing everything. Military-wise they are quite similar. Eco wise they are dramatically different however, which affects which timings are actually good for Ports on EP or not. Can new Ports do similar timings to France on EP? Probably yes, you can do a mam push around the same time French would go for their 5+3 Cuir timing. Can't do early falc push though, can't play colonial in most MUs where French could rush easily, can't play mid/late colonial die to lack of upgrade cards, can play on water... etc etc. They have ONE similar timing which is the most popular one for both civs.
Jerom wrote:Im pretty sure ports and france have always been similair except that on RE ports are the trash version of france so ports always try somewhat weird things on re (naked ff, fi, and 10/10 if you're aiz).
As someone with over 100 RE port 1v1 games (FML) I can assure the team of the validity of this statement. Ports have similar shipments to France and similar comps (minus 2 falcs), they just have much shittier ways of doing everything. Military-wise they are quite similar. Eco wise they are dramatically different however, which affects which timings are actually good for Ports on EP or not. Can new Ports do similar timings to France on EP? Probably yes, you can do a mam push around the same time French would go for their 5+3 Cuir timing. Can't do early falc push though, can't play colonial in most MUs where French could rush easily, can't play mid/late colonial die to lack of upgrade cards, can play on water... etc etc. They have ONE similar timing which is the most popular one for both civs.
What you don't get is that as port you gotta invest a huge amount of food to boom from 3 tc. This obviously means that you will have less units. And why would you ever push with a small army while you have a better eco? It's simply dumb. You want to wait and never push to win in late game with a better eco. Don't listen to garja anyway.
Jerom wrote:Im pretty sure ports and france have always been similair except that on RE ports are the trash version of france so ports always try somewhat weird things on re (naked ff, fi, and 10/10 if you're aiz).
As someone with over 100 RE port 1v1 games (FML) I can assure the team of the validity of this statement. Ports have similar shipments to France and similar comps (minus 2 falcs), they just have much shittier ways of doing everything. Military-wise they are quite similar. Eco wise they are dramatically different however, which affects which timings are actually good for Ports on EP or not. Can new Ports do similar timings to France on EP? Probably yes, you can do a mam push around the same time French would go for their 5+3 Cuir timing. Can't do early falc push though, can't play colonial in most MUs where French could rush easily, can't play mid/late colonial die to lack of upgrade cards, can play on water... etc etc. They have ONE similar timing which is the most popular one for both civs.
What you don't get is that as port you gotta invest a huge amount of food to boom from 3 tc. This obviously means that you will have less units. And why would you ever push with a small army while you have a better eco? It's simply dumb. You want to wait and never push to win in late game with a better eco. Don't listen to garja anyway.
Yeah that's basically what I was trying to say, you can get a similar-ish timing to France by only training from 1 TC etc but it's not worth it because ecos work differently.
Jerom wrote:Im pretty sure ports and france have always been similair except that on RE ports are the trash version of france so ports always try somewhat weird things on re (naked ff, fi, and 10/10 if you're aiz).
As someone with over 100 RE port 1v1 games (FML) I can assure the team of the validity of this statement. Ports have similar shipments to France and similar comps (minus 2 falcs), they just have much shittier ways of doing everything. Military-wise they are quite similar. Eco wise they are dramatically different however, which affects which timings are actually good for Ports on EP or not. Can new Ports do similar timings to France on EP? Probably yes, you can do a mam push around the same time French would go for their 5+3 Cuir timing. Can't do early falc push though, can't play colonial in most MUs where French could rush easily, can't play mid/late colonial die to lack of upgrade cards, can play on water... etc etc. They have ONE similar timing which is the most popular one for both civs.
What you don't get is that as port you gotta invest a huge amount of food to boom from 3 tc. This obviously means that you will have less units. And why would you ever push with a small army while you have a better eco? It's simply dumb. You want to wait and never push to win in late game with a better eco. Don't listen to garja anyway.
Yeah that's basically what I was trying to say, you can get a similar-ish timing to France by only training from 1 TC etc but it's not worth it because ecos work differently.
You can do the same timing but with less eco, I don't see the point. As France, your timing is meant to take the map and get an eco advantage, it's not going to happen as port. Also you don't have the falc shipment and your skirms are shit.
Garja wrote:400w, fast age up, skirm cards, goon cards, same semis, same stagecoach builds. They also have plenty of features in common it seems. But the problem is more like they play in the same way.
Fre has one goon card, Port - two. Port has skirm cards only in age 4 lol, so although I know that Port games often go up to Industrial, I guess they are pretty irrelevant. Russ also has 400w and fast age up - does it mean they're similar? They also have to produce villagers to create a nice economy, have a Town Center at the beginning and an explorer...
yes, but as Port you're usually forced to do said mam timing because you have no hunts left (#send7sheepfirst).
Not really. Mams aren t op anymore in the EP, and they're melee units, which means that you have to commit to a fight and you can t hit and run. That's why I don't like to send them vs France.
yes, but as Port you're usually forced to do said mam timing because you have no hunts left (#send7sheepfirst).
Not really. Mams aren t op anymore in the EP, and they're melee units, which means that you have to commit to a fight and you can t hit and run. That's why I don't like to send them vs France.
Vs France (or Dutch) they're crap because of opposing goon mass, but against most other civs I'd think they're still fine. Melee cav still has the niche in the snare and unless you actually win a stand-and-fight you're probably gonna run out of food at 15 mins and lose the game. Mams are one of the best shipments to force a fight because they snare for so long. Even if the fight goes even you still deplete your opponent's military and stall the game out longer which gives Ports the advantage in most MUs.
You dont need mams anymore to swing battles, that alone to me is a sign that Ports do too well because it means you have (almost) same army as other semi ff civ while retaining the 3tc advantage.
[Armag] diarouga 
Mimsy for President 
