Ottomans Discussion Thread

[Kaiserklein]

We know the Silk Road card still has the team icon, but it doesn't really work in team games.

Super easy fix. Just change the image path to the vanilla Silk Road card and it will no longer have the team card border.

Added to the bugs list.

It's a team card on nilla too

[iCourt]

It's a team card on nilla too

Vanilla single player card image files aren't colored any differently than team card image files. Granted I may have confused the team shipment color with the infinite shipment color.

Of course he could have meant that the tech still is announcing to the team that Silk Road has been sent. Then that is a just an easy to fix text error.

[Kaiserklein]

It's a team card on nilla too

Vanilla single player card image files aren't colored any differently than team card image files.

They are

[iCourt]

Hmm, then a reskin of the image file would be needed, but again it still is a relatively easy fix.

[forgrin]

Otto are definitely not OP on the patch, probably even underpowered as long as you adequately defend. If anything we should be looking into the mosque upgrades and costs to see if Otto can actually have some eco if invested.

If you're having problems with Jan abus just go xbow-huss, jans are pretty mediocre vs cav and not a good unit without abus backup.

[momuuu]

In fp1.2 (at least I think) they made the church techs give a small amount of vills. I always thought that was pretty neat.

[iCourt]

You could "boom" with Ottoman using those church techs and villager cards in 1.2. I had a build designed all around it for maps like painted desert.

[Jaeger]

It would be cool if the otto mosque vill training upgrades also gave free market upgrades, like the first one could give you steel traps and the second one could give you almagation. Though maybe otto would need a bit of a nerf somewhere else to balance this, but I'm not sure since they have so few vills anyway

[_NiceKING_]

Would be cool if vill training upgrades gave additional vills.

[momuuu]

Would be cool if vill training upgrades gave additional vills.

Yes thats what it was like on fp1.2 and I found it really neat. You werent screwed as badly on non TP maps and it was fair compensation for otto in team games.

[Kaiserklein]

You can already boom with silk road on tp maps. You can get sth like 30 huss or 35 abus at 9 min with 2 tps silk road, and you will have steel traps placer mines and a mosque

[fei123456]

but the tp route is not ottoman's private treasure. your opponent won't let you boom freely, and a silk road ottoman dont have enough unit to defend a long route in the center of the map.

[Kaiserklein]

but the tp route is not ottoman's private treasure. your opponent won't let you boom freely, and a silk road ottoman dont have enough unit to defend a long route in the center of the map.

You can have 10 huss at 6 min with double stable, or 10 abus with double art. Nobody will do this ofc, that's just the troll build I used to do on nilla, but you can do the same with jan huss / jan abus / abus huss. And then you prod more or less non stop from both buildings. You will even have your shit out earlier than 6 min in fact because you can send silk road in age 1, unlike nilla. Pretty sure that's enough to defend your tps from most civs

[momuuu]

You can already boom with silk road on tp maps. You can get sth like 30 huss or 35 abus at 9 min with 2 tps silk road, and you will have steel traps placer mines and a mosque

Well I think the mosque-boom change would be/have been more effective than the silk road change, which is why I am bringing it up here.

[a passing slimey]

Maybe this idea is a bit stupid, but i think it is worth testing.

How about having the speed of janissaries lowered to 3.6 or 3.7?

This would make raiding them much more viable, which would make the ottoman have more things to worry about other than just a-moving his army. This would also make them have a bit more reason to be making hussars, diversifying army composition options a bit more and increasing their micro potential with the cavalry control. (I guess maybe not that much, but hussar-jan, or hussar-jan-abus doesn't feel that much bad when you start to think how slow your jans would be)

Another thing this woud lead to is that you would need to be much more careful about the positioning of your army and about making your decisions of when to engage since it would become much more important because you wouldn't be able to retreat very well with such slow jans. (Which is another thing that would help making hussars for colo a thing. In that case, they could be used for scouting purposes.)

An extra bonus to that is that this would narrow the strength/skill level proportion for low skilled players because it would become easier for them to hit and run jans.

[deleted_user0]

Bad idea. Ottomans already have trouble with raids and their army is already quite inmobile since its heavily based on inf and arty

Jan huss is already viable and the default option in some mus. And its often added later on to the jan abus composition to round it out. 3.6 speed is just too slow for a unit thats also supposed to be anti cav. I would rathet lower abus speed but it doesnt really serve a purpose

[a passing slimey]

In some MUs you indeed can or need to make hussar, but in most of them, you simply do your cookie-cutter jan abus timming because it is the best thing to do period... The thing about making hussars more viable in your composition is to make there be a bit more of decision-making and variability for those other MUs.


By the way, isn´t the ottoman a-move timming op? A few points of speed isn´t that much of a thing for defending against raids if you simply have 5 jans or so staying in your base; the distance needed to walk wouldn´t be that much in that case, so -10% isn´t really that much. Because otos doesn´t need that many resources and don´t have many vills, your vills aren´t really spread out. While it is a pain to defend against raids as oto since you don´t really want to make hussars and also want to keep your army all together, that need of splitting their army would exactly be the point. It would nerf their army in a way that skill would be more important, since you would need to think whether to split your army. When I said raids(I guess the way I said that really was misleading...), I actually meant more in the sense of it being counter attacks in the way people do sometimes against falc pushes when them themselves don´t have an army to contest the falcs. I think this would make the ottoman overall much more reliant on the player´s decision making, which would make the skill cap actually matter. It would also change situations that you would have lost the game because you took a single bad engagement to a situation you could still force a comeback somehow. I don´t think there are many other ways of having skill actually mattering as otto. (Pretty much only skirm micro... The rest is all basic stuff you can just memorize for the most part.)

Well, I guess it could cause some problems in some MUs... Something like the other guy outbooming the oto while containing them with their better mobility. I can´t think of anything other than sioux in that case, since you would still be able to make hussars and more or less catch up with them if the other guy was going for many cav. If there was maybe a card, or maybe the veteran upgrade increasing their speed back to normal, I think those cases would at least not be hopeless. (I´m not sure if the less speed would make it a problem for defending TPs. Maybe it wouldn´t be a problem if you are scouting the movement of the army?)

I don´t think 3.6/3.7 is too slow for an anti cav musket unit when it is already so painful to fit those cav in to kill the abus before they are all slaughtered... Since their target is the abus, they need to get near anyway. You mostly only need to body block, and 0.4, 0.3 less speed isn´t really that much for the little walking distance the unit will need to take. Of course the point would be that catching the retreating cav is much tougher, but again, the oto army is just op in straight fights, and being able to retreat more cost effectively would give leeway for people to make better comebacks in situations the oto would usually just rolfstomp win after taking a too good of an engagement.(And the abus would still be able to follow after the army to some point, since their speed would still be 4) Overall, I think it would be an indirect nerf for the strength of their army since they would kind of need to split their army up to defend raids, which is much better than simply nerfing the strength of their units in the sense that skill would matter more in this case, and this would also make judgements of the situation very important since you wouldn´t be able to retreat very well. Even if otos suffer from raids, it is not like they don´t have anything that don´t make up for that, and it is not like 10% less speed would be broken to the point that oto would become unplayable because of the said raids.

Well, I am no pro unfortunately :/ Maybe it would be too much of a nerf to the ottos to simply put this in without any other aditional changes to balance the power they lost, but with other tweaks, I think it would be possible. Maybe it is because it is my idea, but I think it would really be worth it to give it a few tests. Otos are too much straightforward with their army movement (you either push in or sit at your base for the most part ^^), their strategies (most MUs being variations of jan abus and jan cannon mameluke ff) and overall unit control. There is barely any decision making for otos, since in most MUs you easily decide the pace of the game and because of the cookie-cutter strats. Having the person to actually needing to analize the situation before a-moving and having to take extra care for their raids would be a way to make it matter more.

I understand that the eso patch doesn´t intent on changing the civs too much, but just like how they were intending on changing the eco mechanics for Sioux at some point in time by having their teepees give a eco aura, changing the way ottos work even if drastically shouldn´t be a problem, after all, they are a cookie-cutter strat a-move civ that people find boring.(unless they are trolling doing some revolt or FI shenarigans)

[yurashic]

Why do you talk about things you do not know about?

Do you seriously think that you can contest Sioux raiding with hussars?

Infantry compositions are overall significantly worse than compositions that involve cavalry. Cavalry raids, slows units down, runs away if needed, tanks, does good damage against everything. There are not many exceptions - yumis and ashigarus, because both of these units are broken, and janissaries and abus guns, because this composition is more like musketeers and cannons rather than musketeers and skirmishers.

Ottomans do not need any nerfs. There were only 2 games with Ottomans in RO32 and higher in the Winter Tournament - my game against Marechal_Rondon and PrinceofKabul's game against _H2O. If a civilization is so unpopular in tournament games it surely means that most people do not feel comfortable with current Ottomans.

[KINGofOsmane]

otto pretty bad now ^^

[a passing slimey]

I stated the thing agout sioux though? Veteran upgrade giving back their speed or so would make it at least not hopeless. Not that this is the main point though.

What i was talking about is how this might make otto a not cookie-cutter a-move civ moreso than it being solely for the sake of balancing it.

Instead of making their units worse, making them need to split units in order to weaken their army strength in order words. I think it would make them a more interesting civ to play as.


Edit:ah, i just read againwhat i wrote... I guess the way i phrased it up was very misleading. When i stated about the sioux, i meant it like it being possible to contest mobility with hussars against other civs making a lot of cav for containing the otto in their base, and sioux being the only exception, since BRs are so strong against cav and other units overall.

[Atomiswave]

Reduce AB nerf and return silk road to age 2. Then Otto will be fine again I think.

[Darwin_]

Revert Jan HP nerf and increase attack to 22 ranged. This will give them more options in colonial based around jan/huss, because right now jan/abus is only decent due to jan nerf. I think this buff/nerf would rather effectively leave jan abus at the same strength while slightly buffing jan/huss, and also slightly nerfing pure jan rushes, which are surprisingly strong on ep 2.0.

[pecelot]

Jans nerf has already been reverted? Plus they're already strong, realistically the only Otto nerfs are Abus ROF and ESOC maps, other than that they still can pull off tough shit.

[deuxballesman]

4mams card too ? Huge nerf for their ff whitch was OP though

[Darwin_]

Jans nerf has already been reverted? Plus they're already strong, realistically the only Otto nerfs are Abus ROF and ESOC maps, other than that they still can pull off tough shit.

Oh I guess i should say revert revert the jan nerf, the nerf from ep 1.0 so lower hp.