Iroquois Discussion Thread

[Goodspeed]

RE Iro:

- Always possible to TP start.
- Livestock map? No problem, most likely you can build a farm to fatten them in age 1 with your free building anyway.
- Warchief is a walking cannon: crackshot wins age 1 fights vs pets and nats, 15% hp aura is insane, with a bit of micro can literally solo kill 5-7 musketeers.
- Age up politicians are better than any other civ because of the free travois.
- Longhouses provide more population per cost than other civs, excepting India.
- Aenna are fast & cost effective
- Insane infantry upgrades
- Forest Prowlers = Skirmisher demigods
- 4 Kanya
- ...6 Kanya
- Running out of resources? Guess it's time to dance for travois and get really cheap farms/plantations!

Notice if you made the same list for Iro but did it for EP, the only difference is the first line.

[Garja]

Which is why Iro still good but not OP anymore.

[deleted_user0]

RE Iro:

- Always possible to TP start.
- Livestock map? No problem, most likely you can build a farm to fatten them in age 1 with your free building anyway.
- Warchief is a walking cannon: crackshot wins age 1 fights vs pets and nats, 15% hp aura is insane, with a bit of micro can literally solo kill 5-7 musketeers.
- Age up politicians are better than any other civ because of the free travois.
- Longhouses provide more population per cost than other civs, excepting India.
- Aenna are fast & cost effective
- Insane infantry upgrades
- Forest Prowlers = Skirmisher demigods
- 4 Kanya
- ...6 Kanya
- Running out of resources? Guess it's time to dance for travois and get really cheap farms/plantations!

Notice if you made the same list for Iro but did it for EP, the only difference is the first line.

also the second. You don't even know your own patch.

[Mitoe]

I mean, the main thing is that they can't rush quite as hard without making big cuts to their eco or other aspects of their build. Their rush was the biggest problem; that coupled with the fact that ESOC maps are better for other civs.

[Mitoe]

14v age up is great because it allows you to have 4 kanyas at 4:50.

Which sometimes is really good but many times useless

...

[Goodspeed]

RE Iro:

- Always possible to TP start.
- Livestock map? No problem, most likely you can build a farm to fatten them in age 1 with your free building anyway.
- Warchief is a walking cannon: crackshot wins age 1 fights vs pets and nats, 15% hp aura is insane, with a bit of micro can literally solo kill 5-7 musketeers.
- Age up politicians are better than any other civ because of the free travois.
- Longhouses provide more population per cost than other civs, excepting India.
- Aenna are fast & cost effective
- Insane infantry upgrades
- Forest Prowlers = Skirmisher demigods
- 4 Kanya
- ...6 Kanya
- Running out of resources? Guess it's time to dance for travois and get really cheap farms/plantations!

Notice if you made the same list for Iro but did it for EP, the only difference is the first line.

also the second. You don't even know your own patch.

?

[Hazza54321]

700x crates I think were considered at some point but probably Iro don't need it. I mean it's not even a big change but this is an opportunity to stick as much as possible to the original game.

honestly since when have we cared about that x)

[Garja]

I guess prior to bs Sioux eco teepees.

[zoom]

what about giving them 700w 700g 700f?

It's an option, but we opted for turning their unique feature viable and use that instead.

Villager seconds:

600w: 1200
600c: 1000
400f, 200w, 200c: ~1215,26

[jgals]

I guess prior to bs Sioux eco teepees.

Sioux eco Tepee are far from BS. If you think about how important Sioux tepees are to their hunting and gathering, I mean really! I don’t know how they ever gathered without tepees to put all their meat and gold in! Obviously units fight better when they are allowed to sleep under a portable shelter at night, but this revelation that meat keeps better in a tepee out of the sun truly is wonderful. Actually it seems like that’s why the Sioux eco has always sucked... the devs did not know that Sioux vils needed tepees... thankfully the epatchers finally got around to discovering it all these years later on the eve of aoe4.

Actually eco boost from tepees is the main reasons I would play EP

I think it is a genius idea that really ties the Sioux civ together and gives them a real feeling of being a real civ they were somewhat lacking

Now...if we can only convince the ep team to make tp able to receive shipments after age 1.... ok fine maybe after 3

[Mitoe]

what about giving them 700w 700g 700f?

It's an option, but we opted for turning their unique feature viable and use that instead.

Villager seconds:

600w: 1200
600c: 1000
400f, 200w, 200c: ~1215,26

This isn't really accurate if you account for hunting dogs

[jgals]

if you say so

[zoom]

what about giving them 700w 700g 700f?

It's an option, but we opted for turning their unique feature viable and use that instead.

Villager seconds:

600w: 1200
600c: 1000
400f, 200w, 200c: ~1215,26

This isn't really accurate if you account for hunting dogs

Correct. 400f, 200w, 200c Villager seconds with Hunting Dogs:

~1171,45

[Garja]

Regardless of the cost vill value it simply doesn't find a practical use, which is my main critique about the change. I even tried it in the classic toma rush, as a short term substitute to 600w to keep the tomahawk spam going with less possible wh or TC idle time. And still it doesn't seem, on paper at least, to justify neither the slot in the deck nor the cost-opportunity of delaying all other superior shipments (600w 5v, etc.).
For the record, I tried to convince GS that 300f 200w 300g would have been slightly more useful, at least in one niche case. But, well I suppose someone based the choice purely on math once again.
Aside from that, the change bring consistency which never hurts.

[momuuu]

Seems better than 600w/600c in a semi ff maybe? You dont rly want 600w, but you do want a small amount of wood. The 400f 200g will be used to speed up the Fortress. Seems pretty good, 3v 5v 400/200/200 shipment.

[Garja]

Nah, 600g is better in that case, either for naked, 5 or 10 toma FF. Especially if it is naked or 5 toma only you can send 600g and then Rainbow crates in fortress without delay. That provides all the infrastructures without chopping wood which is the most efficient way to get to fortress.
As for 600w that's also needed in prolonged semis or colonial play. For cav semi you usually go 600w 5v 600g or 5v 600w 600g. If you want more cav you have 4 kanya shipment (400f 300w). There is also the 4 kanya 600w 5v semi where you have early 4kanya+5 toma (+ mora toma in case) and you stagecoach+housing out of 600w.

A rainbow crate in colonial could be useful to add flexibility when you need to leave both the colonial and the age up options open, in case the opponent challenges your semi FF with more units (so you have to make extra units to avoid excessive idle). The problem is that 400f 200w 200g is too unbalanced on food so it results quite poor for an age up. 300f 200w 300g, would be slightly better and that's what I suggested. In any case it's hard to find a practical use for that card and given that iro colonial rack is pretty crowded it's hard to fill it in.

[zoom]

Regardless of the cost vill value it simply doesn't find a practical use, which is my main critique about the change. I even tried it in the classic toma rush, as a short term substitute to 600w to keep the tomahawk spam going with less possible wh or TC idle time. And still it doesn't seem, on paper at least, to justify neither the slot in the deck nor the cost-opportunity of delaying all other superior shipments (600w 5v, etc.).
For the record, I tried to convince GS that 300f 200w 300g would have been slightly more useful, at least in one niche case. But, well I suppose someone based the choice purely on math once again.
Aside from that, the change bring consistency which never hurts.

We'll find out soon enough whether it finds use, instead of predetermining that it won't.

No math at all, actually; just basic logic.

[Garja]

What is the logic behind it.

[deleted_user0]

Regardless of the cost vill value it simply doesn't find a practical use, which is my main critique about the change. I even tried it in the classic toma rush, as a short term substitute to 600w to keep the tomahawk spam going with less possible wh or TC idle time. And still it doesn't seem, on paper at least, to justify neither the slot in the deck nor the cost-opportunity of delaying all other superior shipments (600w 5v, etc.).
For the record, I tried to convince GS that 300f 200w 300g would have been slightly more useful, at least in one niche case. But, well I suppose someone based the choice purely on math once again.
Aside from that, the change bring consistency which never hurts.

We'll find out soon enough whether it finds use, instead of predetermining that it won't.

No math at all, actually; just basic logic.

yess... because it was very clear they needed another resource card!

[jgals]

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14524&p=305613#p305613

this might be the best case for iro to get canon in age 3 I know of. You may look at me and say "oh he is just a 2cnd liutenit, that is why he lost to a field marshall, but watch this rec, and If you sincerily believe that there was literally anything else I could have done without canon in age 3 let me know

BTW this was played on RE, but I'm pretty sure it would have gone the same way on EP

[forgrin]

http://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14524&p=305613#p305613

this might be the best case for iro to get canon in age 3 I know of. You may look at me and say "oh he is just a 2cnd liutenit, that is why he lost to a field marshall, but watch this rec, and If you sincerily believe that there was literally anything else I could have done without canon in age 3 let me know

BTW this was played on RE, but I'm pretty sure it would have gone the same way on EP

I replied on your reply topic. There is no "case" in your gameplay.

[P i k i l i c]

http://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14524&p=305613#p305613

this might be the best case for iro to get canon in age 3 I know of. You may look at me and say "oh he is just a 2cnd liutenit, that is why he lost to a field marshall, but watch this rec, and If you sincerily believe that there was literally anything else I could have done without canon in age 3 let me know

BTW this was played on RE, but I'm pretty sure it would have gone the same way on EP

are you being serious asking for iro to get cannon in age III because of 1 2nd lieut level game and you don't know you can build town centers and establish stagecoach and train canoes? I used to like you

[Goodspeed]

http://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14524&p=305613#p305613

this might be the best case for iro to get canon in age 3 I know of. You may look at me and say "oh he is just a 2cnd liutenit, that is why he lost to a field marshall, but watch this rec, and If you sincerily believe that there was literally anything else I could have done without canon in age 3 let me know

BTW this was played on RE, but I'm pretty sure it would have gone the same way on EP

I think I told you once the first step to improving is knowing you suck. At your level, even if there is a balance issue, you can always win by outplaying. Therefore if you lose, it's not because there's a balance issue but because you made mistakes.

Like all civs, Iro have strengths and weaknesses. Them not having cannons in fortress is a weakness, but they have strengths to make up for it.

[stronk]

http://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14524&p=305613#p305613

this might be the best case for iro to get canon in age 3 I know of. You may look at me and say "oh he is just a 2cnd liutenit, that is why he lost to a field marshall, but watch this rec, and If you sincerily believe that there was literally anything else I could have done without canon in age 3 let me know

BTW this was played on RE, but I'm pretty sure it would have gone the same way on EP

I doubt you are a 2.liuet from what I've seen and from what kind of bullshit you post here.

[gamevideo113]

Iro don't have cannons in age 3 but they have rams and mantlets, which are really good at sieging. Regardless, competing with a water boom without stagecoaching is impossible.