Iroquois Discussion Thread

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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:What is the logic behind it.
That 400f, 200w and 200c is generally useful. Depending on how viable it turns out to be, it may get buffed.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Goodspeed wrote:
jgals wrote:http://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=14524&p=305613#p305613

this might be the best case for iro to get canon in age 3 I know of. You may look at me and say "oh he is just a 2cnd liutenit, that is why he lost to a field marshall, but watch this rec, and If you sincerily believe that there was literally anything else I could have done without canon in age 3 let me know

BTW this was played on RE, but I'm pretty sure it would have gone the same way on EP
I think I told you once the first step to improving is knowing you suck. At your level, even if there is a balance issue, you can always win by outplaying. Therefore if you lose, it's not because there's a balance issue but because you made mistakes.

Like all civs, Iro have strengths and weaknesses. Them not having cannons in fortress is a weakness, but they have strengths to make up for it.
As much as I agree, it is well and truly possible that Iroquois have an exploitable weakness against cannons in Fortress Age, that is not compensated for.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:What is the logic behind it.
That 400f, 200w and 200c is generally useful. Depending on how viable it turns out to be, it may get buffed.


Please describe a situation where that card would be more useful than the cards they already have. And note that age2 iro is cramped already, so it means you have to replace another card.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

umeu wrote:
zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:What is the logic behind it.
That 400f, 200w and 200c is generally useful. Depending on how viable it turns out to be, it may get buffed.


Please describe a situation where that card would be more useful than the cards they already have. And note that age2 iro is cramped already, so it means you have to replace another card.

momuuu wrote:Seems better than 600w/600c in a semi ff maybe? You dont rly want 600w, but you do want a small amount of wood. The 400f 200g will be used to speed up the Fortress. Seems pretty good, 3v 5v 400/200/200 shipment.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

There is one situation where that card might be good and is, as I already said, when you toma rush with fast age and you send it after 4 kanya instead of 6 toma or 600w. 400f 200w provide the necessary resources for a house and to keep the toma spam going. Normally it's still better to send 600w because with all vills on food you get more value out of it and you can still keep toma spam going. However if it was a 100g and you started with the market you can trade the gold for wood and then it's basically a 400f 300-400w card so in fact quite good. However it still takes one slot in the deck and I might as well have 4v, 6 aenna or 2 travois instead. Especially 2 travois, as a short term resource card, is quite superior potentially being worth 600w or so for 2whs or even way more if used for farms.

Jerom example is not a good one, I already pointed it out.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

And I will just randomly point out it is a good example.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

I do think it will be good in a semi, actually. Something like 5v > 800 res > 600c seems good. Maybe with a unit shipment in there somewhere depending on the situation.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Ye true that. Tho 5v first is already not great for a cav semi and a toma semi with 5v first is rather useless with Iros. if you throw in a unit shipment in the build then pretty sure 600w becomes better again. Maybe the card could have an use in such build by trading 100f for 75g.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

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momuuu wrote:
umeu wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Please describe a situation where that card would be more useful than the cards they already have. And note that age2 iro is cramped already, so it means you have to replace another card.

momuuu wrote:Seems better than 600w/600c in a semi ff maybe? You dont rly want 600w, but you do want a small amount of wood. The 400f 200g will be used to speed up the Fortress. Seems pretty good, 3v 5v 400/200/200 shipment.


you actually do want the 600w because you usually use that to take more tps and or upgrade them. And you're also going to need houses etc.

But did iro really need this? Is iro really "weak" because they can't semi ff? And how much do we want iro to become yet another run of the mill semi ff civ...

Sure, perhaps this card is useful (and even that seems quite debateable) in some semi ff's where you want to be up 15 sec faster but with less infrastructure, but does iro become a better more allround civ because of this? afaik iro had no trouble doing a semi ff, and in fact they already had a very powerful semi ff.

so is there any other situation where this card is useful when you don't semi ff? or does the card address a problem that wasn't there to begin with.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

I would say it's decent in expected long term colonial situations where you want the wood upgrade early. That costs 150c
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

The wood upgrade isn't much of a problem. Often you get hunting dogs before colonial so you spare 100g and then can trade 100f for 75g making it just 25f more expensive but without moving vills to gold at all. Alternatively with a 100g start you can try aging up at 14v without market and get both market ups from the starting+age up gold crates. In any case if you want a colonial game there are basically strictly better options than seeking for max income efficiency and that involve pretty much all other good cards before the rainbow crates.

I agree tho there is actually one very relevant situation in the current meta where having mixed crates might help a little. Just with 300g it would have helped more, potentially to the point of being actually good to have it.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

100g from wise woman + hypothetical 300g from rainbow crates + 600g from crates = 1000g
I guess a build could be done with this (semi-ff without mining gold), dunno
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Goodspeed wrote:I would say it's decent in expected long term colonial situations where you want the wood upgrade early. That costs 150c

but in long term colonial, which card are you going to dump for that?

you have 10 slots.

100% if you play prolonged colonial you want these cards: 5v, 6 + 7 aenna, 6 toma, 4 kanya, 3 upgrades, 600w. so you have 1 slot open. If I expect long term colonial I can think of a few cards i would prefer over that: farm upgrade, native advanced arsenal, and if you go so greedy that you get wood upgrade quickly, I think i would prefer 4v over the res card as well.

Perhaps it's decent. More likely it's one of those cards that you have in your deck that won't ever really use. I just kinda wonder what weakness of iro it's supposed to fix.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

umeu wrote:
momuuu wrote:
Show hidden quotes

momuuu wrote:Seems better than 600w/600c in a semi ff maybe? You dont rly want 600w, but you do want a small amount of wood. The 400f 200g will be used to speed up the Fortress. Seems pretty good, 3v 5v 400/200/200 shipment.


you actually do want the 600w because you usually use that to take more tps and or upgrade them. And you're also going to need houses etc.

But did iro really need this? Is iro really "weak" because they can't semi ff? And how much do we want iro to become yet another run of the mill semi ff civ...

Sure, perhaps this card is useful (and even that seems quite debateable) in some semi ff's where you want to be up 15 sec faster but with less infrastructure, but does iro become a better more allround civ because of this? afaik iro had no trouble doing a semi ff, and in fact they already had a very powerful semi ff.

so is there any other situation where this card is useful when you don't semi ff? or does the card address a problem that wasn't there to begin with.

It seems like a random change to me yeah, but I wouldn't say it's a useless card.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

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momuuu wrote:
umeu wrote:
Show hidden quotes


you actually do want the 600w because you usually use that to take more tps and or upgrade them. And you're also going to need houses etc.

But did iro really need this? Is iro really "weak" because they can't semi ff? And how much do we want iro to become yet another run of the mill semi ff civ...

Sure, perhaps this card is useful (and even that seems quite debateable) in some semi ff's where you want to be up 15 sec faster but with less infrastructure, but does iro become a better more allround civ because of this? afaik iro had no trouble doing a semi ff, and in fact they already had a very powerful semi ff.

so is there any other situation where this card is useful when you don't semi ff? or does the card address a problem that wasn't there to begin with.

It seems like a random change to me yeah, but I wouldn't say it's a useless card.


ofc not useless. unction change is also not "useless". but still, how often do we really see it? Not useless doesn't really mean useful as well.
at least unction has the benefit of being useful in team i guess.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

All in all it's just a buff to an existent civ mechanic which was inconsistent among the ages and not usable because too weak.
It can replace the 4v card or 6 aenna card.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

umeu wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:I would say it's decent in expected long term colonial situations where you want the wood upgrade early. That costs 150c
but in long term colonial, which card are you going to dump for that?

you have 10 slots.

100% if you play prolonged colonial you want these cards: 5v, 6 + 7 aenna, 6 toma, 4 kanya, 3 upgrades, 600w.
I'd probably leave out 6 aenna. I guess by long term colo I don't mean 20+ min, just long enough for the wood upgrade to be worth it. Which it probably is even if you're going fortress before 12 min, since it stays useful in fort.
The card is better than 600c in almost all cases I think, and serves as a good second way to send some wood after having sent 600w. I don't see a lot of builds where it wouldn't be useful considering the VS. You can see it as 400f 300w 75c too, if that sounds stronger to you.
But yeah I'm just speculating.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

I have 2 decks on ep, one with 4v and one with 6 aennas. Other cards being 5v, 600w 600g, 3 inf upgrades, 7 aennas 6 tomas 4 kanyas. I think neither 4v nor 6 aennas are very important cards, so I could see the new 800 res shipment replace these.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

They arent very inortant. Atleast 4v isnt. 6 aenna can save you in some cases. But the thing here is that 800 res card is only marginally better, fullfils a similar albeit more dynamic role, where it kinda combines 4v and 6aenna purposes into 1, while also being useful in semi ff. It gives them more options sure. But does it really fix a problem? Never in any iro game i played on either patch have i felt like damn... If only i had another res card, i would be in such a better position. Whereas ive definitely felt like oh if i had 4+5 lancer id be fine. In colo especially i never felt like i needed anything other than 600w. In that regard buffing it to 700 would be more useful i think.


I'm fine with just trying it out. Since it seems to be just a guess. But i wonder why you arent trying more things out. And ofcourse, preferably in isolation. In the beta imo you should change 1 civ at a time, or atleast as few as possible, not counting general changes. Otherwise, if you want many changes, because its more practical for the state of the game, at least organize a cheesehunt tournament on each beta before you roll it out. This also allows you to be a bit more "creative" with changes.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Seems to be somewhere between low-mid tier. Decent against slow civs but gets totally rekt against semi-ff civs.

For example it seems impossible to win ger. In colonial they can just bow+mm or even dopps because tomahawk animation is terrible and in age 3 germany masses easily double compared to iro. Probably quite the same story with fre. Eco gets easily behind.

Also, winning a good india is total pain. You are literally on a timer before your eco is too much worse. On a timer vs triple mm.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

I actually find Germans to be one of Iro's good matchups.

I think they're probably about average right now, though.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

What do you actually as Iro here? I only manage to win if I outplay hard or opponent makes a lot of mistakes.
I'd say Iro is below average. Also, a lot of problems vs art in age 3.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Ger defo not a good MU for iro, even knowing the MU. As opposed to French, Germans have more raid potential while semi FFing, gets more units out and also more convenient units (always having skirm/cav and eventually mercs).
India is not easy but definetely one of iro doable MUs. It is true you need to keep a tempo advantage or you lose.

With all this said, iro isn't weak from any perspective. Both civ mechanics and win rate are fine.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

Yeah artillery is a problem for sure.

It's been a while since I've played the matchup, but when Kaiserklein and I were testing it last year both of us were losing as Ger and winning as Iro.

I think Iro has some good timings vs semi-FFs like German or France if you do something like this:

5v 600w 4 Kanya 600c (age)
or 5v 4 kanya 6 toma 600c (age)

And push off of the 3rd shipment while they're aging up with like 14 Kanya + 5 toma or 10 kanya 11 toma depending on your card order. Just gotta watch out for dopps and other heavy infantry--you can try to scout this with some throwaway guardians or something.

You can also just do 5v 4 Kanya (or 6 toma) 600c--aging off of the 3rd card instead of 4th and not going for the timing. One of Iro's advantages in this matchup is that they don't need to send wood for military buildings or anything, because they'll get it for free upon aging, so you can just send units instead.

4 Kanya first + 5 Kanya from stable can also be really strong, especially if you age with 14 vills. It's basically just a better version of the French 8 huss rush, because your Kanya are tankier and you have Warchief crackshot and possibly some guardians.

Alternatively you can toma semi with farm + farm ups, and then your eco is roughly equivalent to Germans, better, even, if you get some wood upgrades. Then ship 1200 res and 8 FP / 6 Kanya and just mass FP / Toma / Kanya, maybe with 5-10 Musket Riders, and Germans has a hard time dealing with this unit comp because FP > skirm, and your anticav is really good. You don't really want to fight before you can get a critical mass of cav or else get infantry combat in and possibly a firepit setup for a big fight.


If you want to play it in age 2 that's a bit harder: you need to either 14v age up or fast age, otherwise you probably can't do it. You also need to find the right balance between Aenna and Toma, because Toma aren't strong enough without cards to fight vs a good xbow/pike push. If you mess up your unit composition a little bit you can get steamrolled sometimes, but for the most part if you just keep up the pressure and try to prevent him from aging up you can win. Stagecoach is nice too but you usually can't afford to do it in this matchup I find.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

Iro's semi-FF, or rather colonial timing into age up builds are pretty unbeatable on RE patch. There's no reason they wouldn't still be strong on EP.
Iirc that was also Grunt's way of playing the civ back when they were OP in TWC, except it was like a 15 toma semi-FF.

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