Iroquois Discussion Thread

[Garja]

on RE the semi is OP just like everything iro does. You can easily do a 5v 4v 600g semi with 2 tps. Probably do something even more greedy like stagecoach or just 3 TP semi while still being the offender.

[momuuu]

For some unknown reason I think this topic showed up as unread for everyone here. The last responds before Garja's dates from november last year. I am confused to say the very least.

[iNcog]

If it's in unread, then I'll asnwer it!

[momuuu]

Of course, that is after all the driving force behind your 'contribution'.

On topic: some of the reverted nerfs seem to have had a positive effect. Maybe it was just a psychological thing but it feels like slightly more people are willing to play iro.

[iNcog]

It's psychological!

[momuuu]

Which you base on testing the civ, right?

Oh wait youre just pulling shit out of your ass.

[iNcog]

what the fuck jerom

i agree with you -> i'm pulling shit out of my ass

lulwat.net

[lemmings121]

so, Ive heard a couple players mention that in wood start the civ is pretty solid, but with the others starts is just to slow.
any good iro player in ep (there are any?) can talk about that?

What you think about making the wood start fixed for iro, china style. (yes, a bit ugly solution, but is better then the civ being either balanced or useless, based on luck)

[Garja]

They are fine on any crate start.
Due to the the extra food crates they can basically market better than every civ with the gold start and with food start they either start chopping wood significantly before the 15th vill comes out or just age with 14v.
Iro are competitive vs most civs, including Dutch, India and Brits. They are pretty much Fre 2.0 with less reliable eco play but few stronger features.

[zoom]

– "Crates of 200 Food, 200 Wood, and 200 Coin" home-city shipment increased to 400f, 200w, 200c; name and description updated accordingly.
– Tomahawk hitpoints increased from 150 to 160.
– War Chief hitpoints aura increased from 15% to 20%.

[gamevideo113]

Iroquois age2 cards are already quite clumped, not sure if one more colonial card is necessary.
Tomahawks could be a bit better for their cost, yeah, but with the warchief aura they become decent. Also the easy eco management of iro in colonial should be considered when balancing tomas and other age2 iroquois units.
Warchief aura is quite strong already imo.
Iroquois overall don't feel weak so imo only small changes should be considered. My favourite one would be tomahawk atk from 19 to 20.
To be honest i'm not even really sure on what makes them slightly below average. Probably they should be marginally better in colonial because one thing i know for sure is that once they reach fortress they are very competitive in terms of units and features.

[Kaiserklein]

– "Crates of 200 Food, 200 Wood, and 200 Coin" home-city shipment increased to 300f, 300w, 200c; name and description updated accordingly.
– Tomahawk hitpoints increased from 150 to 160.
– War Chief hitpoints aura increased from 15% to 20%.

Iro are not even bad, and these are huge buffs...

[lemmings121]

ok, why basically noone plays iro in tournaments? just not a popular civ? too many counterpicks? whats the deal?

something is preventing people to play them since the beggining of ep.

[Garja]

– "Crates of 200 Food, 200 Wood, and 200 Coin" home-city shipment increased to 300f, 300w, 200c; name and description updated accordingly.
– Tomahawk hitpoints increased from 150 to 160.
– War Chief hitpoints aura increased from 15% to 20%.

I agree in buffing the rainbow crate card which is supposed to be more than the one type crate card.
The other two changes are not needed (Iro are fine unit wise) and in particular the third change would be insanely good.

[gamevideo113]

ok, why basically noone plays iro in tournaments? just not a popular civ? too many counterpicks? whats the deal?

something is preventing people to play them since the beggining of ep.

Man i really don't understand that! There is soo much to love about Iro. I guess it's a civ that most people don't know very well because of its reputation on RE and so they don't want to bother with it.

What about changing the cav attack and hp shipments to 20%? 15% is honestly really lame for a fortress age shipment, regardless of the design of the civ.

[Garja]

Cav cards are underwhelming but rightly so. WC aura plus amazing infantry are enough of a reason for that. Still cav HP can find its place in the deck.

As for why Iros are unpopular it's the same reason for other TWC civs. They have an emphasis on execution and thus mechanics, plus they don't have that reliable of a late game (at least not if you don't know how to exploit some of their civs bonuses).

[Kaiserklein]

ok, why basically noone plays iro in tournaments? just not a popular civ? too many counterpicks? whats the deal?

something is preventing people to play them since the beggining of ep.

I would pick them over fr or ger, I'm just not super experienced with them. And I think the same goes for a lot of people. The civ was kind of forbidden on re.

[lemmings121]

ok, why basically noone plays iro in tournaments? just not a popular civ? too many counterpicks? whats the deal?

something is preventing people to play them since the beggining of ep.

I would pick them over fr or ger, I'm just not super experienced with them. And I think the same goes for a lot of people. The civ was kind of forbidden on re.

I also think thats the reason, since noone plays it on re, its way harder to git gud with it in ep.

[zoom]

– "Crates of 200 Food, 200 Wood, and 200 Coin" home-city shipment increased to 300f, 300w, 200c; name and description updated accordingly.
– Tomahawk hitpoints increased from 150 to 160.
– War Chief hitpoints aura increased from 15% to 20%.

Iro are not even bad, and these are huge buffs...

I wouldn't make all of these changes at the same time. I just like all of them individually, and am suggesting options if it were decided that Iroquois needs a buff, which is looking likely at this point.

I'm trying to create some discussion to get more input from others. That's always good unless Garja is going "bad logic, shit change" on me.

[Kaiserklein]

Well iro just shouldn't get buffed. They're really not bad. I have a fine win rate with them even if I'm not a good iro player.
Then even if they get buffed, the toma or wc boost are just too much. You can do the crates thing though.

[gamevideo113]

Iroquois have a really decent lategame if you ask me
-200w farms and plantations with free upgrades if you send the card (btw those upgrades affect not only farms and plantations but also natural resources);
-Infinite 1500 res in age 4 (there is also infinite 7 mantlets which has good value but the unit itself is not very versatile);
-Cheap unit upgrades because it's a warchief civ;
-Tc, farm and plantation big buttons;
-Firepit
Garja has actually one saved vod in his twitch channel of a long game with iro against france where he shows these features. TWC lategame (except for sioux) is often underrated imo. It's a shame that TWC civs are often neglected.

[jgals]

(Im sorry of my weird English)
Modifications which patches volunteers have created of the Iroquois is too terrible.
The cost to Aenna "meat 110" becomes a thing that gives a burden on the Iroquois of internal affairs,I feel the intention of " prohibit the Rush".
Aenna is the key unit of the Iroquois
this modification will lose attract to use the Iroquois.
It was also sealed the trading post start by further eliminating the tree from the starting resources
(which might be said to take trade by taking wood)
I suspect that the patch of authors thought like this.
"Do not Rush because we want to create internal affairs and then military victory."
Well,I agree such thought a bit, and I can also understand the current situation which 2R is hated.
But this change was deprived rush from the Iroquois.
After taking a trading post and Rush from the Iroquois,
only strategies are semi-FF without trade .
So I'm opposed to the Iroquois modifications in the ESO patch.
Iroquois user will be drastically reduced.(it this a pessimistic thought?)
※日本語を英語に訳したのでひどい英文になっていますが、ご了承ください。

While the patch team acknowledges that the Iroquois have strong units by design, the Aenna at 100f is simply too cheap for its impressive base statistics. It won't be a great burden, but a slight one. As far as I know, the change is unrelated to prohibiting the rush in particular, but clearly related to nerfing Colonial Play in general. I assure you we do not want to make rushing less viable than it already is on most EP maps, but Iroquois on RE are simply so strong in so many ways. I can't say I agree with you that rushing is less viable now than any alternative strategy – the Iroquois are just weaker in general.

Please keep in mind that apart from ~-140w net starting crates (which is big) the changes to the civilization are rather small.

With that said, it is not at all unrealistic that a civilization that is played a lot simply on account of being OP will be played less when it is no longer OP. I would only consider the relatively negative to be pessimism though, so no I don't find it a pessimistic thought.

Although it is late to say after the patch came out,
how about just abolish Age Up Fast, or abolish bonus of travois?
I wish authors may consider this suggestion.
In any case,110 aenna cost is a terrible change.

The patch is likely to receive updates, so it is not too late at all and it is very much appreciated. However, it is the opinion of the EP team that Iroquois on RE are OP for reasons other than The Messenger council politician (fast age-up), and that the Travois are inherent to the design of the civilization. If the civilization proves to need further changes I'm confident they will be granted.

Please keep play-testing the civilization(s) and give the patch an honest chance. Be wary of jumping to conclusions! DO NOT KROSS THE MANKL!!

You can’t just look at the base statistics you have to look at how in practice they really stack up against other early units of other Civ’s. Dude it’s an insanely BS mod to make aenna cost more food. They are a mediocre unit at best and now are more expensive than any other age 2 inf. If anything make them 90 food 10 wood so that it’s not such an OP macro unit but now your basically going to hunt screw any iro player that can’t move out of his base at 6 minutes

[stronk]

(Im sorry of my weird English)
Modifications which patches volunteers have created of the Iroquois is too terrible.
The cost to Aenna "meat 110" becomes a thing that gives a burden on the Iroquois of internal affairs,I feel the intention of " prohibit the Rush".
Aenna is the key unit of the Iroquois
this modification will lose attract to use the Iroquois.
It was also sealed the trading post start by further eliminating the tree from the starting resources
(which might be said to take trade by taking wood)
I suspect that the patch of authors thought like this.
"Do not Rush because we want to create internal affairs and then military victory."
Well,I agree such thought a bit, and I can also understand the current situation which 2R is hated.
But this change was deprived rush from the Iroquois.
After taking a trading post and Rush from the Iroquois,
only strategies are semi-FF without trade .
So I'm opposed to the Iroquois modifications in the ESO patch.
Iroquois user will be drastically reduced.(it this a pessimistic thought?)
※日本語を英語に訳したのでひどい英文になっていますが、ご了承ください。

While the patch team acknowledges that the Iroquois have strong units by design, the Aenna at 100f is simply too cheap for its impressive base statistics. It won't be a great burden, but a slight one. As far as I know, the change is unrelated to prohibiting the rush in particular, but clearly related to nerfing Colonial Play in general. I assure you we do not want to make rushing less viable than it already is on most EP maps, but Iroquois on RE are simply so strong in so many ways. I can't say I agree with you that rushing is less viable now than any alternative strategy – the Iroquois are just weaker in general.

Please keep in mind that apart from ~-140w net starting crates (which is big) the changes to the civilization are rather small.

With that said, it is not at all unrealistic that a civilization that is played a lot simply on account of being OP will be played less when it is no longer OP. I would only consider the relatively negative to be pessimism though, so no I don't find it a pessimistic thought.

Although it is late to say after the patch came out,
how about just abolish Age Up Fast, or abolish bonus of travois?
I wish authors may consider this suggestion.
In any case,110 aenna cost is a terrible change.

The patch is likely to receive updates, so it is not too late at all and it is very much appreciated. However, it is the opinion of the EP team that Iroquois on RE are OP for reasons other than The Messenger council politician (fast age-up), and that the Travois are inherent to the design of the civilization. If the civilization proves to need further changes I'm confident they will be granted.

Please keep play-testing the civilization(s) and give the patch an honest chance. Be wary of jumping to conclusions! DO NOT KROSS THE MANKL!!

You can’t just look at the base statistics you have to look at how in practice they really stack up against other early units of other Civ’s. Dude it’s an insanely BS mod to make aenna cost more food. They are a mediocre unit at best and now are more expensive than any other age 2 inf. If anything make them 90 food 10 wood so that it’s not such an OP macro unit but now your basically going to hunt screw any iro player that can’t move out of his base at 6 minutes

You are either trolling or just have no clue about the game at all.

[jgals]

Cav cards are underwhelming but rightly so. WC aura plus amazing infantry are enough of a reason for that. Still cav HP can find its place in the deck.

As for why Iros are unpopular it's the same reason for other TWC civs. They have an emphasis on execution and thus mechanics, plus they don't have that reliable of a late game (at least not if you don't know how to exploit some of their civs bonuses).

I just want to clarify are you saying garja that the warchief civs require more skill/finesse to play well? really??? I thought all you have to do is forward warhut send 6 tomo and BB to auto win!

[[Armag] diarouga]

That's all you have to do on the RE right.
On the EP however, they're harder to play.