Iroquois Discussion Thread

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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

I think the minus ~150w, iro explorer auro nerf and aenna nerf was a bit over the top. Just compare it to the 'nerfs' otto got :/
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Otto got essentially boosted, that's why xD
And no zoi, iro eco is not weak. 700 resource politician + 25w discount every 15 pop + a TP + free wood up (that aztecs struggle to get) is not bad eco.
Also iros have those BB for crate resources and have efficient farm/plantation spam because of the firepit mechanic (tho this is only relevant for mid/late game).
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:Otto got essentially boosted, that's why xD
And no zoi, iro eco is not weak. 700 resource politician + 25w discount every 15 pop + a TP + free wood up (that aztecs struggle to get) is not bad eco.
Also iros have those BB for crate resources and have efficient farm/plantation spam because of the firepit mechanic (tho this is only relevant for mid/late game).
only tier one market upgrades is quite a huge setback though.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Well compared to boomy civs of course. That's their advantage afterall. But it's worth noting that the wood up is actually 20% and the farm upgrades also affect hunts and berries. Iros can often drop a farm in a way or another and research those ups (as well as fattening herdables if using the starting travois).
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Wuangaga »

Garja wrote:Otto got essentially boosted, that's why xD
And no zoi, iro eco is not weak. 700 resource politician + 25w discount every 15 pop + a TP + free wood up (that aztecs struggle to get) is not bad eco.
Also iros have those BB for crate resources and have efficient farm/plantation spam because of the firepit mechanic (tho this is only relevant for mid/late game).

Where do the 700 res politician and the free wood up come from?
Iro's eco is really not good in comparison to other civs. The only civs that don't have little extensions or gimmicks for their eco are Iro, Sioux, Otto and Spain. Sioux doesn't need wood for houses, Otto can compensate with the starting tp, strong unit stats and vills not costing anything, Spain compensates with having faster shipments (with the patch better). With +25 wood for +5 pop which is honestly not as big the other things, where does Iro stand?
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Wise woman age up is 400 crates + 250w warhut + about 50w in walking/building time saved for the warhut = 700 resources.
25w is not bad considering iro units are not pop unefficient like aztec or russian ones, nor Iro requires lot of houses like Germans.
The "free" wood up (20%) comes essentially from the 100g of wise woman age up. The remaining 50g is usually from treasures or starting 100g. It's not really for free but it's a very good deal for a 20% upgrade.
As I said their eco is bad compared to the ones of brits, french, etc. but they have other bonuses.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

So they dont get a free wood upgrade because you already counted those res in the free resources?

By that logic one could say sioux ages with basically 700w because they dont need houses, get a free wood upgrade and a TP and get 100w every 10 pop making their eco even better than iros!
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Not at all – Sioux start with 2000 wood...
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

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Jerom wrote:So they dont get a free wood upgrade because you already counted those res in the free resources?

Garja wrote:It's not really for free but it's a very good deal for a 20% upgrade.

Jerom wrote:By that logic one could say sioux ages with basically 700w because they dont need houses, get a free wood upgrade and a TP and get 100w every 10 pop making their eco even better than iros!

Aside from your math being a bit off (I didn't count the house discount into the age up value for iros), Sioux actually have that passive discount which makes their eco better than what people think. And ye Sioux potentially get 2 TPS almost for free since they only use part of the age up crates and can spam full batch of units while also chopping 200w in transition.
That said their eco is still not better than the Iro one:
- they don't have 5+4 vills (have the hunting card tho)
- they don't have BB that generate resources (aside from the TC BB)
- they don't have Agrarian Ways card (they have the card for cheaper cav instead)
- they don't have late game eco cards.
- they don't have the travois dance at the firepit.
- they don't have an infinite 1500 resource card either
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:Not at all – Sioux start with 2000 wood...

Theoretically yes, except you have to actualize that value for a very long period of time (possibly infinite, since there are games in which you don't even reach 200/200) so that the actual value is much lower than that.
They do earn a one-off 100w every 10 pop (as soon as units die that bonus start losing value).
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Wuangaga »

Garja wrote:That said their eco is still not better than the Iro one:
- they don't have 5+4 vills (have the hunting card tho)
- they don't have BB that generate resources (aside from the TC BB)
- they don't have Agrarian Ways card (they have the card for cheaper cav instead)
- they don't have late game eco cards.
- they don't have the travois dance at the firepit.
- they don't have an infinite 1500 resource card either

These are all things you use in 1 out of 10 games, except the 5 vills of course.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

I can assure I use half of those things in pretty much every game.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:I can assure I use half of those things in pretty much every game.

Do you use 4v? No.

Agrarian ways? No.

Late game eco card?No.

Travois dance? No.

Infinite 1500 crates? No.

So again, you're spouting bs.
I have to admint they have rams which is a very good unit you often use though.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Wuangaga »

Garja wrote:I can assure I use half of those things in pretty much every game.

So pretty much all of your Iroquios games go late game? I don't really see a point in using any of these things except the vill shipments before 20 minutes.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:I can assure I use half of those things in pretty much every game.

Do you use 4v? No.

Agrarian ways? No.

Late game eco card?No.

Travois dance? No.

Infinite 1500 crates? No.

So again, you're spouting bs.
I have to admint they have rams which is a very good unit you often use though.


I use 4 vills just not after 5v (6 toma and 4 kanya are better in the current meta).
Late game eco card, yes when I switch to plantations and mills. That's rare I admit.
Agrarian ways, yes whenever I'm switching to mills or plants and I have a spare card I use that.
Travois dance, absolutely yes and everyone should start using it.
Infinite 1500, yes that's the 3rd card in industrial.

Btw, yes in the current meta is quite common to have 20+ minute games.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:
Jerom wrote:So they dont get a free wood upgrade because you already counted those res in the free resources?

Garja wrote:It's not really for free but it's a very good deal for a 20% upgrade.

Jerom wrote:By that logic one could say sioux ages with basically 700w because they dont need houses, get a free wood upgrade and a TP and get 100w every 10 pop making their eco even better than iros!

Aside from your math being a bit off (I didn't count the house discount into the age up value for iros), Sioux actually have that passive discount which makes their eco better than what people think. And ye Sioux potentially get 2 TPS almost for free since they only use part of the age up crates and can spam full batch of units while also chopping 200w in transition.
That said their eco is still not better than the Iro one:
- they don't have 5+4 vills (have the hunting card tho)
- they don't have BB that generate resources (aside from the TC BB)
- they don't have Agrarian Ways card (they have the card for cheaper cav instead)
- they don't have late game eco cards.
- they don't have the travois dance at the firepit.
- they don't have an infinite 1500 resource card either

My math wasn't off. I decided to include 3 houses in the aging crates because that seems to be a reasonable assumption given the amount of houses civs build in their opening builds (3 houses, up to 40 pop), which is quite influential because that means getting extra TPs is really easy for sioux. I couldve done the math on the 100w every 10 pop to adjust for the fact that I did count the first 40 pop and added taht to the starting crates, but that'd have been way too much effort for a forum post. If you want to go all salty on it, just read 80w instead of 100w and the point still stands.

The only reason their eco would be worse than iro's is that iro has a 5 villager card. Those other points regard their lategame ecos, which has nothing to do with your initial analysis which was of their early game eco. Id be willing to argue that iro's and sioux' lategame ecos are both pretty bad. They lack cards like the age 3 food and coin upgrades and eco theory for example, plus the market upgrades are actually an even bigger deal in the mid to lategame.

The thing you forgot to mention is that they start with 5 vills, which is.. not that much. Before you age, 1 vill will have gathered 120 wood, and iro's starting crates aren't the greatest either. So that early game great age up politician is offset by the fact that it is necessary to make it for quite a weak start.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

@Garja Don t tell me you switch mills more than 1/10 games.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:Iro is still tier1 civ

Of course...


yes it is diarouga, just like russia is also tier1. and garja proved this by losing to fre and germany all the time. russia and iro on fp > fre and ger overall, they just dont win games.

kinda like garja > all even tho he doesnt win games.

:ugeek: diarouga you are a fool to believe otherwise
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:I can assure I use half of those things in pretty much every game.

Do you use 4v? No.

Agrarian ways? No.

Late game eco card?No.

Travois dance? No.

Infinite 1500 crates? No.

So again, you're spouting bs.
I have to admint they have rams which is a very good unit you often use though.


on re?

Yes, sometimes, no, no, yes.

on fp? dont play iro... even spain is better now
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Still beng annoying... jesus, stop this.
I can prove my points anytime if I really care to do that.
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Jaeger »

Garja wrote:Still beng annoying... jesus, stop this.
I can prove my points anytime if I really care to do that.

@Umeu

UMEU VS GARJA SMACKDOWN PLZZZZZZZZZZZZ
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:Still beng annoying... jesus, stop this.
I can prove my points anytime if I really care to do that.
and here we have the infamous garja argument: "I am right but I dont want to explain why I am right because its too much effort (actually because I am wrong)".
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Jerom wrote:
Garja wrote:Still beng annoying... jesus, stop this.
I can prove my points anytime if I really care to do that.
and here we have the infamous garja argument: "I am right but I dont want to explain why I am right because its too much effort (actually because I am wrong)".


He already prooved it by loosing all his games as iro xD
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Marco1698 »

Wuangaga wrote:Iro is in a pretty bad spot regarding a lot of matchups at the moment. It's age 2 play is barely viable, the semi-ff does fine but the iro eco does always hang behind in eco because there are no tier 2 market upgrades, so you have need abuse that point in time where enemies are following you up in age or try to get them stuck in age 2. So being patient to not overcommit is one of the most important things to look at as iro.
I'd say Iro got overnerfed, either reversing the aenna nerf or the warchief nerf would bring them in an okay spot again.

We tried French iro and I can admit iro is good, but not op for sure. I would tbh make aenna cost 90f
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Re: Iroquois Discussion Thread

Post by Marco1698 »

@garja you are so weird. You always think to be right but when people ask you proofs you just don't do it. Well I think you shouldn't say bs if you don't want people quote you. Umeu / diarouga are right here. I checked your elo and seems like you are losing almost of your games playing a civ which is ofc good but not as much as you think. Not sure if yours is a trolling or just like say bs. Sometimes I agreed with you, but just not here, iro is certainly a good civ, but it can't win many MUs. Also,colonial iro is not as good as it used to be before, that's why everyone goes ff as iro and get outplayed from French semi, German etc. You played a bunch of games with LordRaphael and got raped 0-3 vs his French. You lost also a lot of games vs kaiserklein. Why keep saying you're right xD. I am not good, but about umeu diarouga certainly, they are. I want believe their thoughts this time

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