Spanish Discussion Thread

[Dsy]

They are ok in team but weak in 1v1.
No 400 wood, slow age up, bad shipments, no skirmisher shipments.
Main problem you need ff very early cause of the slow age up politician. It hurts your eco because you lose that time that other civs spends for market upgrades. Plus the normal spanish ff has no soldiers until age 3 which means your eco will struggle more vs raids. And you age up for the same time, but you cant send even skirmishers, goons. Only lancers are veteran for an age 3 shipment, plus you have 2 cannons,

[Atomiswave]

They are ok in team but weak in 1v1.
No 400 wood, slow age up, bad shipments, no skirmisher shipments.
Main problem you need ff very early cause of the slow age up politician. It hurts your eco because you lose that time that other civs spends for market upgrades. Plus the normal spanish ff has no soldiers until age 3 which means your eco will struggle more vs raids. And you age up for the same time, but you cant send even skirmishers, goons. Only lancers are veteran for an age 3 shipment, plus you have 2 cannons,

You summed it all up, that's why Spain needs big buffs, at least in shipments, so they at least have a mass of bad units if nothing.

[Darwin_]

Spain in team is pretty good, because of fast 5 and 4 vill shipments, which gives them a good eco early on. Also rods gel really well with musk, musk-huss. Skirm-rod-huss is a good comp if you have a dutch or india teammate. I do think that, like Russia, spain has not been discovered all that well, and we don't have a good picture of the full potential of the civ. That being said, they still just need a wee little push to get them into a good civ strength territory (brits or french as an example). Think that a slight xp buff and eco buff would be nice. Of course, in a perfect world, I would just give them a fast age-up and call it a day, but I know a lot of the patch team doesn't want to do that.

[Atomiswave]

Spain in team is pretty good, because of fast 5 and 4 vill shipments, which gives them a good eco early on. Also rods gel really well with musk, musk-huss. Skirm-rod-huss is a good comp if you have a dutch or india teammate. I do think that, like Russia, spain has not been discovered all that well, and we don't have a good picture of the full potential of the civ. That being said, they still just need a wee little push to get them into a good civ strength territory (brits or french as an example). Think that a slight xp buff and eco buff would be nice. Of course, in a perfect world, I would just give them a fast age-up and call it a day, but I know a lot of the patch team doesn't want to do that.

Unit shipment and unction buff is a safest way to go. Unction buff will open possibility for some colonial agenda, and possibly make it viable strat, and shipment buffs(would like to see more pikes and 5 lancer card) will give bigger mass on timing pushes. Otherwise in current meta Spain is one trick pony, either FF or nothing, which is very predictable and limiting. Xp trickle rate would be too much i think. Don't forget that nilla Spain was OP, we want middle ground here.

[forgrin]

I still think the eco shipment buff is the best way to go, allows them to leverage their bonus. There are a bunch of ways to do it, but I think something like a strong age 2 gold trickle (similar in power to age 2 India wood trickle) would be best. It's more unique than something like another 5v shipment and allows them to, say, get out MM easier in transition to fortress if they're being rushed. Also would make a fast eco semi (something like 5 rods just to keep enemy cav away) slightly better.

For unction, I think it should just decrease missionary costs slightly (esp wood). The main problem with unction right now isn't that it's weak; it can give you quite a good bonus, it's just too expensive for Spain's eco.

[Darwin_]

Spain in team is pretty good, because of fast 5 and 4 vill shipments, which gives them a good eco early on. Also rods gel really well with musk, musk-huss. Skirm-rod-huss is a good comp if you have a dutch or india teammate. I do think that, like Russia, spain has not been discovered all that well, and we don't have a good picture of the full potential of the civ. That being said, they still just need a wee little push to get them into a good civ strength territory (brits or french as an example). Think that a slight xp buff and eco buff would be nice. Of course, in a perfect world, I would just give them a fast age-up and call it a day, but I know a lot of the patch team doesn't want to do that.

Unit shipment and unction buff is a safest way to go. Unction will provide em with some colonial agenda, and possibly make it viable strat, and shipment buffs(would like to see more pikes and 5 lancer card) will give em bigger mass on timing pushes. Otherwise in current meta Spain is one trick pony, either FF or nothing, which is very predictable and limiting. Xp trickle rate would be too much i think. Don't forget that nilla Spain was OP, we want middle ground here.

I wouldn't call them Op. They about as strong as China is now, which I would call borderline. They were a generally strong civ, with a few aspects that were just too good. Namely 5 lancers. Now with the removal of 5 lancers and 9 rods, I think that Spain would be completely fine in the current meta with the nilla XP trickle.

[Atomiswave]

Spain in team is pretty good, because of fast 5 and 4 vill shipments, which gives them a good eco early on. Also rods gel really well with musk, musk-huss. Skirm-rod-huss is a good comp if you have a dutch or india teammate. I do think that, like Russia, spain has not been discovered all that well, and we don't have a good picture of the full potential of the civ. That being said, they still just need a wee little push to get them into a good civ strength territory (brits or french as an example). Think that a slight xp buff and eco buff would be nice. Of course, in a perfect world, I would just give them a fast age-up and call it a day, but I know a lot of the patch team doesn't want to do that.

Unit shipment and unction buff is a safest way to go. Unction will provide em with some colonial agenda, and possibly make it viable strat, and shipment buffs(would like to see more pikes and 5 lancer card) will give em bigger mass on timing pushes. Otherwise in current meta Spain is one trick pony, either FF or nothing, which is very predictable and limiting. Xp trickle rate would be too much i think. Don't forget that nilla Spain was OP, we want middle ground here.

I wouldn't call them Op. They about as strong as China is now, which I would call borderline. They were a generally strong civ, with a few aspects that were just too good. Namely 5 lancers. Now with the removal of 5 lancers and 9 rods, I think that Spain would be completely fine with the nilla XP trickle.

Nine rods are back in ep 1.0, and rumor goes that 5 lancer card is being tested.

Anyway more unit shipment buffs or xp trickle rate, i would be ok with both solutions. Just buff Spain and make it more appealing for 1v1 competitive play.

[Jaeger]

Spain was unarguably the best civ on nilla. Just look at all the tournaments which took place or ask any of the experienced spain nilla players. Also spain is not weak or unappealing in 1v1, it's strong until at least PR35, I suspect all the way. There is nothing wrong with a 1 trick pony. First of all you can do variations as well, but even if your opponent knows exactly what you will do it doesn't mean he can beat it.

[Rikikipu]

I don't understand why no one trust H2O when he says that atp colonial play for spain is viable...

[[Armag] diarouga]

It is viable but it isn't better than the ff in most situations.

[momuuu]

I don't understand why no one trust H2O when he says that atp colonial play for spain is viable...

Looking at his stream made me see someone doing godly micro to barely beat majors lol. That makes me doubt how strong it actually is.

[Dsy]

Noone said there are no viable stats with spain, but those are still weak. Plus atp works only 3+ tp maps.
French has around +40% better eco plus early raid potential to raid. Until age up you will get maybe 1 unit shipment early-mid period with spain, but french laughing at your face with +40% eco difference and better shipments. Outmass ggwp. Who the hell think it balanced?
And you cant make market ups cause you can ageing then 7:00 instead of 6:00. You need soldiers to defend vs raid in this case so its delay to 8:00 with slow age politician.
So we age up fast 6:00 without market ups praying to God that pike + cannon can defeat everything early on. But those arent really good units in age 3. They are weak even in age 2.
Maybe 400w politican could be good to build some eco in age 2 and 10-9 rod 5-4 lancers to get some civ bonus age 3.

[momuuu]

I'd like to say the French TP huss semi FF is simply superior.

[Dsy]

French - germans better ff
British - better eco - outmass
Dutch - better eco and better ff
Otto - otto
Port - better ff i think especially now
Russia - better age 2 play - outmass
Japan - better eco - outmass
china - better ff
India - better age 2 play - outmass
Iro - better age 2 - outmass
Aztec - better age 2 - outmass
Siux - siux

Point me where do i have some advantage with spain?

[Rikikipu]

French - germans better ff
British - better eco - outmass
Dutch - better eco and better ff
Otto - otto
Port - better ff i think especially now
Russia - better age 2 play - outmass
Japan - better eco - outmass
china - better ff
India - better age 2 play - outmass
Iro - better age 2 - outmass
Aztec - better age 2 - outmass
Siux - siux

You are kinda right with these aspects, because you are talking about the main bonus of other civs. But spain is for instance faster than most of civs, they got strong options to defend their FF from an age 2 rush. Aslo they are able to spamm units in age 3.
Atm, for having tried it, just think piro FF is the easiest way to become captain in 2 or 3 days without any skills. Even RisinTiger rush or otto FF seems harder.

[Atomiswave]

I don't understand why no one trust H2O when he says that atp colonial play for spain is viable...

ATP colonial is sub par at best with Spain. When you play seriously with some civ, you are going for optimal play style, not gimmicky tricks that work maybe once.

[iNcog]

yeah and rikki's point is that why aren't we taking that style for more than just a gimmick when H2O has expressed validation of its being good

[Atomiswave]

yeah and rikki's point is that why aren't we taking that style for more than just a gimmick when H2O has expressed validation of its being good

I watched some H20's Spain colo streams. It's is doable for the sake of it, but i think he wouldn't use it on tourneys, where Spain is probably lowest tier pick. In casual matches everything is viable to the certain extent.

[Jaeger]

French - germans better ff
British - better eco - outmass
Dutch - better eco and better ff
Otto - otto
Port - better ff i think especially now
Russia - better age 2 play - outmass
Japan - better eco - outmass
china - better ff
India - better age 2 play - outmass
Iro - better age 2 - outmass
Aztec - better age 2 - outmass
Siux - siux

Point me where do i have some advantage with spain?

French-almost even
British-almost even
Dutch-free win
Otto-spain favored
Port-Very hard to play it right but spain wins probably
Russia-free win
Japan-Probably a bit japan favored but very hard for japan to play
China-Maybe there exists a build that I don't know about but vs all types of ff I played=free win
India-even
Iro on EP-easy win
Aztec-aztec probably wins
Sioux-not sure

[Garja]

French-almost even
British-almost even
Dutch-free win
Otto-spain favored
Port-Very hard to play it right but spain wins probably
Russia-free win
Japan-Probably a bit japan favored but very hard for japan to play
China-Maybe there exists a build that I don't know about but vs all types of ff I played=free win
India-even
Iro on EP-easy win
Aztec-aztec probably wins
Sioux-not sure

French - closer now but still probably one sided for French
Brit - probably this one is close now. Can't tell tho. Not many games in which Brits tried semi FF (or FF).
Dutch - probably easy win ye. Not sure tho. Should test it more with new builds. Defo a hard MU for Dutch.
Otto - otto still probably need with proper colo play (despite card buffs and jan nerf). Guess it's close now tho.
Port - I'm rather convinced that Port can beat Spain easy if they don't die to the first push.
Russia - Russia probably wins in colo with huge mass and better eco. Can probably even do fortress based builds and get unpunished most of times.
Japan - I think Jap still beat Spain with semi FF or even just colo play. Maybe it's not the case tho with some new build for Spain.
China - china should beat Spain tho gimmick aggressive FFs still work I guess.
India - probably india can naked FF with proper scouting and then it's same thing as other civs like French or China
Iros - close I guess, both civs have nice FF.
Aztecs - aztecs should win rather easy. Maybe I'm missing couple Spain defensive resources tho.
Sioux - dunno, probably close or Spain better

[Jaeger]

French-almost even
British-almost even
Dutch-free win
Otto-spain favored
Port-Very hard to play it right but spain wins probably
Russia-free win
Japan-Probably a bit japan favored but very hard for japan to play
China-Maybe there exists a build that I don't know about but vs all types of ff I played=free win
India-even
Iro on EP-easy win
Aztec-aztec probably wins
Sioux-not sure

French - closer now but still probably one sided for French
Brit - probably this one is close now. Can't tell tho. Not many games in which Brits tried semi FF (or FF).
Dutch - probably easy win ye. Not sure tho. Should test it more with new builds. Defo a hard MU for Dutch.
Otto - otto still probably need with proper colo play (despite card buffs and jan nerf). Guess it's close now tho.
Port - I'm rather convinced that Port can beat Spain easy if they don't die to the first push.
Russia - Russia probably wins in colo with huge mass and better eco. Can probably even do fortress based builds and get unpunished most of times.
Japan - I think Jap still beat Spain with semi FF or even just colo play. Maybe it's not the case tho with some new build for Spain.
China - china should beat Spain tho gimmick aggressive FFs still work I guess.
India - probably india can naked FF with proper scouting and then it's same thing as other civs like French or China
Iros - close I guess, both civs have nice FF.
Aztecs - aztecs should win rather easy. Maybe I'm missing couple Spain defensive resources tho.
Sioux - dunno, probably close or Spain better

Otto win with colonial play? How?
Pretty sure india ff should lose, if you go all in you can lose to a mahout pop but if you play it safe I think you're good just starving out india.
I remember playing vs your iro and you were playing much better and I was losing units for free and some were still close games
Aztec feel like they can win with just a huge mass of coyo mace. The mace just kill the HI way faster than the HI kill the coyotes
Vs china I haven't lost with all in ff, people say that china can go all in too but I don't see how 8 ckn in transition is gonna make you win

[Garja]

2 rax jans all in. Or just 2rax + foundry timing with stagecoach.
Something like this with India should work just fine http://www.rts-sanctuary.com/The-Asian- ... try1226156
Iro have plenty of builds. And I didn't even play well in those games. If you don't fuck up vs the 2 cannons thing then it's downhill with better shipments and units. Bit like French.
Aztecs can just bow pike rush killing houses and shit and there is nothing Spain can really do. Any overeaction probably lose to the same thing or to something else. Could be that some very specific Spain FF saves the day tho. And then maybe Aztecs have to find other ways to win which may be more complicate.
8 chokus in transition doesnt seem good. For all in I just imagine using more guys on wonder and skipping 1-2 vills to make disciples or save food for mm and units. Also perhaps starting TP+village instead of 2x village just to lame shipments.

[Jaeger]

2 rax jans all in. Or just 2rax + foundry timing with stagecoach.
Something like this with India should work just fine http://www.rts-sanctuary.com/The-Asian- ... try1226156
Iro have plenty of builds. And I didn't even play well in those games. If you don't fuck up vs the 2 cannons thing then it's downhill with better shipments and units. Bit like French.
Aztecs can just bow pike rush killing houses and shit and there is nothing Spain can really do. Any overeaction probably lose to the same thing or to something else. Could be that some very specific Spain FF saves the day tho. And then maybe Aztecs have to find other ways to win which may be more complicate.
8 chokus in transition doesnt seem good. For all in I just imagine using more guys on wonder and skipping 1-2 vills to make disciples or save food for mm and units. Also perhaps starting TP+village instead of 2x village just to lame shipments.

Well otto colo didn't win on nilla right? Don't think much is different on TAD, and on EP with jan hp nerf its probably even better.

[Dsy]

When i play spain i feel i have disadvantage vs any civ.
But show me recs where spain can beat any other civ (same level players)!

[deleted_user0]

2 rax jans all in. Or just 2rax + foundry timing with stagecoach.
Something like this with India should work just fine http://www.rts-sanctuary.com/The-Asian- ... try1226156
Iro have plenty of builds. And I didn't even play well in those games. If you don't fuck up vs the 2 cannons thing then it's downhill with better shipments and units. Bit like French.
Aztecs can just bow pike rush killing houses and shit and there is nothing Spain can really do. Any overeaction probably lose to the same thing or to something else. Could be that some very specific Spain FF saves the day tho. And then maybe Aztecs have to find other ways to win which may be more complicate.
8 chokus in transition doesnt seem good. For all in I just imagine using more guys on wonder and skipping 1-2 vills to make disciples or save food for mm and units. Also perhaps starting TP+village instead of 2x village just to lame shipments.

Well otto colo didn't win on nilla right? Don't think much is different on TAD, and on EP with jan hp nerf its probably even better.

its kinda 50/50 on nilla. mostly due to maps.