Japanese Discussion Thread

[zoom]

– Way of the Bow changed (reverted) from +2 Yumi range to +2 Yumi range and +15% Yumi hitpoints.
– Shogun hitpoints-aura decreased from +20% to +10%.

[Garja]

Reasonable change as long as there is agreement that age3 yumi were not a problem. I'm personally not sure about this. Age3 yumi with 20 range already shit on other skirms without the hp boost (was it 10 or 15%?)
20% HP aura on all units is indeed a bit too strong, considering that HP seems to be more valuable than attack, and daymos' attack boost is 15%. Industrial japanese unit deathball does get out of control with both daymo and shogun, however this is really something worth testing or at least worth spending some time to calculate breaking points. It is quite a considerable nerf.

[zoom]

Reasonable change as long as there is agreement that age3 yumi were not a problem. I'm personally not sure about this. Age3 yumi with 20 range already shit on other skirms without the hp boost (was it 10 or 15%?)
20% HP aura on all units is indeed a bit too strong, considering that HP seems to be more valuable than attack, and daymos' attack boost is 15%. Industrial japanese unit deathball does get out of control with both daymo and shogun, however this is really something worth testing or at least worth spending some time to calculate breaking points. It is quite a considerable nerf.

I agree with you. Note that the idea is to properly transfer the nerf to the late-game so as to affect team-games over 1 Vs 1. Also note that a Shogun is better than a Daimyo, regardless of the aura.

Way of the Bow is 15% hitpoints on RE. Daimyo attack-aura is 10%.

[Hazza54321]

daiymo is 15% on re right?

[zoom]

I was pretty sure it's 10% and unchanged. I'll check.

[zoom]

Just checked RE. Shogun is 20% radius 18 or 20, and Daimyo is 10%, ditto. It's unchanged on EP.

[Warno]

Haven't read the whole thread but has there been discussion on giving them fixed 300w start?

If not, would that be an option?

[Mitoe]

Just checked RE. Shogun is 20% radius 18 or 20, and Daimyo is 10%, ditto. It's unchanged on EP.

Are you sure? I'm 99% certain that Daimyo is 15%.

[Inst]

Japan's problem is that the shrines are extremely weird; i.e, if you start losing map control, you'll never get it back because you'll end up having to build shrines in the back of your base without hunts to give them resources. Japan is hard to balance for that reason; either they're shrined up like crazy and have infinite resources, or they have no shrines at all and are limited to their 75 villager cap.

It would be nice to give Japan the option to build livestock via a card in Age 4; it could allow Japan to survive without hunts, even if you make the livestock extremely expensive (i.e, 120 food for a Wagyu cow).

[Inst]

Tempo Reforms helps, of course; it pushes base rates up to about .63 wood / shrine with heavenly kami sent and Toshogu Shrine up, and food gathering rates to .88 food.

The need to keep hunts alive, also, makes Japan a rather weird civ based on maps. Maps with lots of hunts, like Great Plains, means that Japan is guaranteed a high shrine rate for the entirety of the game. Maps with few hunts, on the other hand, like Mongolia, means that Japan has to end the game early, before their 75 villie cap becomes a liability.

But that's sort of the case with all the Asian civs; when Asian civs start losing, the slippery slope is more intense because you can't rebuild Wonders, and Petard suicide strikes on wonders can set you back for the rest of the game.

[Inst]

Regarding Japan, what if, say, Shrines were half-priced, built twice as fast, and had reduced yields from hunts? Then they could also train shoddy livestock with the fattening cancel removed, so if you razed a Japanese shrine, you could capture cows for extra food.

[Inst]

I also want to ask if anyone believes Yabusame can be used successfully. I just played a guy who successfully used his Yabusame as Culverins; i.e, the Yabusame strolled up to my hand mortars and wrecked them, while my escorting arquebusiers were bouncing off the yabusame's 50% RR. It's an unusual, but interesting use case.

[zoom]

Just checked RE. Shogun is 20% radius 18 or 20, and Daimyo is 10%, ditto. It's unchanged on EP.

Are you sure? I'm 99% certain that Daimyo is 15%.

Positive. It used to be 15% (or more), though, iirc.

[Mitoe]

Hmm. You seem to be correct. I guess I'm crazy :(

[zoom]

– Way of the Bow changed (reverted) from +2 Yumi range to +2 Yumi range and +15% Yumi hitpoints.
– Shogun hitpoints-aura decreased from +20% to +10%.

I like buffing Shrine hitpoints and increasing Cherry Orchard stockpile, in addition to the above.

[Atomiswave]

Shrine hp buff sounds like a great idea, I suggested it more than once.

[Garja]

They're honestly bad ideas. In fact, if there were room for more nerfs those would probably be the immediate candidates.
In particular, shrines are not easy to kill, I don't know where people get that impression. It is far harder to damage Japan through shrine hunting than just vill hunting to any other civ (and Jap included).
Free safe food has always been one of major and most debatable Jap advantages to the point that was nerfed on the ASFP. In the current EP, with safer hunts overall that is not a game breaking perk anymore, but still it doesn't need a buff. Not to mention that there are some buids that have the indirect effect of delaying the cherry depletion and that change would take something off from those builds.

[Atomiswave]

They're honestly bad ideas. In fact, if there were room for more nerfs those would probably be the immediate candidates.
In particular, shrines are not easy to kill, I don't know where people get that impression. It is far harder to damage Japan through shrine hunting than just vill hunting to any other civ (and Jap included).
Free safe food has always been one of major and most debatable Jap advantages to the point that was nerfed on the ASFP. In the current EP, with safer hunts overall that is not a game breaking perk anymore, but still it doesn't need a buff. Not to mention that there are some buids that have the indirect effect of delaying the cherry depletion and that change would take something off from those builds.

Would you consider giving Japan +100f starting crate?

[Garja]

Not really because they already get a fuck ton of crates. Jap age1 si heavily dependant on treasures and that's why their scouts combined are better than euro ones. With decent treasure gathering Japearly efficiency/age up time isnt even a problem.

[Warno]

Not really because they already get a fuck ton of crates. Jap age1 si heavily dependant on treasures and that's why their scouts combined are better than euro ones. With decent treasure gathering Japearly efficiency/age up time isnt even a problem.

So in your opinion right now Jap is fine and needs no changes?

[Garja]

Ye to me they are totally fine. I wanted to rec some games with some new build ideas but I didnt have time (ended up playing Russia instead).

[zoom]

They're honestly bad ideas. In fact, if there were room for more nerfs those would probably be the immediate candidates.
In particular, shrines are not easy to kill, I don't know where people get that impression. It is far harder to damage Japan through shrine hunting than just vill hunting to any other civ (and Jap included).
Free safe food has always been one of major and most debatable Jap advantages to the point that was nerfed on the ASFP. In the current EP, with safer hunts overall that is not a game breaking perk anymore, but still it doesn't need a buff. Not to mention that there are some buids that have the indirect effect of delaying the cherry depletion and that change would take something off from those builds.

Damn, so many bad ideas!

How would you buff Japanese, in case you were to do so?

[Hazza54321]

700w/f/g crates, 5500 in orchards (ive noticed whenever you ship cherries it tends to be when u need a military shipment, might just be me), revert way of the bow, pavilion to 10% on base stats, keep age 4 wonder at 600xp, job done ez

[deleted_user]

700w/f/g crates, 5500 in orchards (ive noticed whenever you ship cherries it tends to be when u need a military shipment, might just be me), revert way of the bow, pavilion to 10% on base stats, keep age 4 wonder at 600xp, job done ez

Broken japs ez

I think increasing orchard bounty to delay the shipment by one would be a very nice buff as, like you said, the cherrys generally need to be shipped right when jap hits fortress ~12 minutes. Jap just needs to survive in good shape until they have sent those orchards, imo, that buys them some extra time.

[deadrising78]

Why in the fuck would u buff japan?? Instant ep delete if that were to happen