Japanese Discussion Thread

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Canada Warno
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Warno »

Garja wrote:Ye to me they are totally fine. I wanted to rec some games with some new build ideas but I didnt have time (ended up playing Russia instead).


Would be really nice to see some high level Jap games with different strats.
I like the civ but the kami -> shrine boom -> yumi -> if survive then push with death ball is getting stale.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Indeed! I'd really love to see some unstandard japan play (like the muy hardy ronin FF).
Look at my avatar for a hint :idea:
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:Damn, so many bad ideas!

How would you buff Japanese, in case you were to do so?

Not easy task, especially considering that any buff in my eyes will risk to ruin balance.
I mean, Japs are already fine in pretty much every department.
700w or 700g would be too much because Jap can send them twice. In fact all Jap cards are rounded down and rightly so.
5000 cherry stockpile is 10 bisons which is more than adequate. Again bear in mind they can send it twice.

We could perhaps test how it works a partial revert of the old Toshogu nerf. That helps Japan overall and might very well be too much but at least doesn't seem to be directly exploitable in a nasty way.
Alternatively we can try giving 250 export to the Toshogu (might revise all the Toshogu export progression for consistency). That would help in defending early aggression by enabling the besteiros or the military rickshaw a bit earlier.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

Anything that can potentially give Japan some boost to contain early pressure is sound idea. 250 export to Toshugu is reasonable. Would you keep way of the bow nerf?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:
zoom wrote:Damn, so many bad ideas!

How would you buff Japanese, in case you were to do so?

Not easy task, especially considering that any buff in my eyes will risk to ruin balance.
I mean, Japs are already fine in pretty much every department.
700w or 700g would be too much because Jap can send them twice. In fact all Jap cards are rounded down and rightly so.
5000 cherry stockpile is 10 bisons which is more than adequate. Again bear in mind they can send it twice.

We could perhaps test how it works a partial revert of the old Toshogu nerf. That helps Japan overall and might very well be too much but at least doesn't seem to be directly exploitable in a nasty way.
Alternatively we can try giving 250 export to the Toshogu (might revise all the Toshogu export progression for consistency). That would help in defending early aggression by enabling the besteiros or the military rickshaw a bit earlier.
I dislike buffing Toshogu, since it's already the only viable option.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Well that would be pretty much the only cons of the change, design-wise.
I don't mind one wonder being the only realistic option anyway. It is pretty much the same thing for China.
Please note that Toshogu wonder doesn't necessarily mean consulate start and shrine boom. In fact, it is just a way to get 20pop (particularly valuable when you skip consulate and karni), while retaining the passive shrine boost for later. The export buff, if anything, would help other type of play as well as the standard shrine boom.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

zoom wrote:
Garja wrote:
zoom wrote:Damn, so many bad ideas!

How would you buff Japanese, in case you were to do so?

Not easy task, especially considering that any buff in my eyes will risk to ruin balance.
I mean, Japs are already fine in pretty much every department.
700w or 700g would be too much because Jap can send them twice. In fact all Jap cards are rounded down and rightly so.
5000 cherry stockpile is 10 bisons which is more than adequate. Again bear in mind they can send it twice.

We could perhaps test how it works a partial revert of the old Toshogu nerf. That helps Japan overall and might very well be too much but at least doesn't seem to be directly exploitable in a nasty way.
Alternatively we can try giving 250 export to the Toshogu (might revise all the Toshogu export progression for consistency). That would help in defending early aggression by enabling the besteiros or the military rickshaw a bit earlier.
I dislike buffing Toshogu, since it's already the only viable option.

Agreed, toshugu is already the best wonder to age to colonial, it doesn't sound appealing to me to buff it. To be fair though 95% of jap games that i see involve toshugu to colonial so actually it wouldn't really make a big difference (from 95% to 100%).
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

How do you guys feel about the following:
Shrine:
- Base gather rate decreased by 50%
- Bonus gather rate per hunt increased by X% (so that it breaks about even with current Japan at 2 or 3 hunts on the shrine, but shrines gather more than currently when 4 hunts are attached).
- HP decrease?

This to make sure Japan can't camp in their base with 20 shrines that are still worth 10+ vills. Stronger if they don't camp, weaker if they do. This reduces the danger of Japan becoming a broken civ as we attempt to balance them. Right now, it's risky to buff Japan in a general way because it might push them over the edge: Jap outscales every other civ, and they can easily become uncounterable if they can't be punished early.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Afaik shrine base gather rates are:
-0.07 food/sec;
-0.05 coin/sec;
-0.05 wood/sec;

Kami adds 50% to base gather rate;
Toshogu adds 133% to base gather rate;
(Tempo reforms adds 300% to base gather rate.)

Every deer at the shrine adds 0.07

Right now a colonial shrine on food with 4 hunts with Kami and Toshogu gathers 0.48f/sec or 0.42g or w/sec.

In game tooltips say 0.34w/sec with 1 hunt, 0.41 w/sec with 2 hunts, 0.48w/sec with 3 hunts and 0.52 w/sec with 4 hunts.
I'm confused :|

Alternatively to what GS proposed, but similarly, i think it would be interesting to nerf Toshogu and buff standard shrines (by increasing the benefit obtained with each animal at the shrine, without the effect of Toshogu) so maybe people would consider different age up options that help more in defending against an incoming rush. I don't think japan should always get away with the "greedy" build of kami+toshogu. I think that russia being able to punish a greedy build with a rush is perfectly fine within the philosophy of the game and japan should be given the option to adapt with a different build, without being over-punished for not choosing toshogu.
As ports if you get rushed you send CM, not eco theory. Similarly japan shouldn't do braindead kami-toshogu every game imo.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Goodspeed wrote:How do you guys feel about the following:
Shrine:
- Base gather rate decreased by 50%
- Bonus gather rate per hunt increased by X% (so that it breaks about even with current Japan at 2 or 3 hunts on the shrine, but shrines gather more than currently when 4 hunts are attached).
- HP decrease?

This to make sure Japan can't camp in their base with 20 shrines that are still worth 10+ vills. Stronger if they don't camp, weaker if they do. This reduces the danger of Japan becoming a broken civ as we attempt to balance them. Right now, it's risky to buff Japan in a general way because it might push them over the edge: Jap outscales every other civ, and they can easily become uncounterable if they can't be punished early.

While I appreciate the logic behind this change, I think the spread between animal/no animal shrining is already significant. This change would very likely extremize the consequences of both having complete map control and having none. Japan will be doomed when they start losing shrines and hunts run out, and also it will be probably unstoppable if the player manages to get 200/200 shrines with hunts.
I dont't think this change helps fixing Japan supposed weaknesses but rather buffs the civ where it already does fine.

The opposite change (nerf toshogu boost, buff shrine base rate) is perhaps worth testing even though I dont like the idea of giving stronger shrines by default.

I still think +50export on toshogu would be a minimalistic buff with concrete use.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

the change just buffs the civ where its not necessary and nerfs when its unnecessary imo
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

What is the current base shrine wood rate with kami and toshogu? Something like .25 right?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Goodspeed wrote:How do you guys feel about the following:
Shrine:
- Base gather rate decreased by 50%
- Bonus gather rate per hunt increased by X% (so that it breaks about even with current Japan at 2 or 3 hunts on the shrine, but shrines gather more than currently when 4 hunts are attached).
- HP decrease?

This to make sure Japan can't camp in their base with 20 shrines that are still worth 10+ vills. Stronger if they don't camp, weaker if they do. This reduces the danger of Japan becoming a broken civ as we attempt to balance them. Right now, it's risky to buff Japan in a general way because it might push them over the edge: Jap outscales every other civ, and they can easily become uncounterable if they can't be punished early.

I'd argue this moves japan deeper into the inconsistent spectrum. Too strong in match ups where they can get a foothold and survive (and are already quite decent), worse in match ups where they cant (and are quite shitty tbh).
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

Would -100w +1 Consulate Rickshaw be too strong?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Mitoe wrote:Would -100w +1 Consulate Rickshaw be too strong?

That's basically +150w, isn't it? (+200 wood for consulate, which you will always build, -100w, but then like 50 wood for build time on the consulate and efficiency)
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

100+(62*0.5) = 131w

But basically, yeah.

Edit: I guess it's closer to 150 if you count the earlier shrine timing, but can easily make consulate rickshaw take 60 seconds to construct like a normal villager. Or longer.

Could also do -100w -100f or something. This would sort of fix their consistency issue in age 1, I think.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Mitoe wrote:100+(62*0.5) = 131w

But basically, yeah.

Edit: I guess it's closer to 150 if you count the earlier shrine timing, but can easily make consulate rickshaw take 60 seconds to construct like a normal villager. Or longer.

I think you tend to build the consulate with 2 villagers even because its so slow, which would mean even more vs wasted right? It was just a rough guess anyways.

The problem with japan is that the difference between 200f 200w 100c start (thats 100c that's useless basically and then 400 res) is too big compared to a 200f 300w start (basically the consulate nets you another ~15 wood and 120 food, while you also don't have the useless 100c). Its basically either you start with 400 effective resources or you can start with 600 effective resources. I'm actually in favor of fixed crates now that I've expressed the feeling into words.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Japan can do market start and 2v with 100g start. Skipping cons until 600w and going double 600w to drop more shrines whike focusing on unit production or market techs.
Consulate rickshaw is flawd idea imo:
- too much of a buff
- implies always going for cons strats
- starting with 3 ricksahws, 2 scouts and 7 crates isnt exactly cool with resource placement or even just unit missing bugs. It gets too crowded.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

momuuu wrote:
Mitoe wrote:100+(62*0.5) = 131w

But basically, yeah.

Edit: I guess it's closer to 150 if you count the earlier shrine timing, but can easily make consulate rickshaw take 60 seconds to construct like a normal villager. Or longer.

I think you tend to build the consulate with 2 villagers even because its so slow, which would mean even more vs wasted right? It was just a rough guess anyways.

The problem with japan is that the difference between 200f 200w 100c start (thats 100c that's useless basically and then 400 res) is too big compared to a 200f 300w start (basically the consulate nets you another ~15 wood and 120 food, while you also don't have the useless 100c). Its basically either you start with 400 effective resources or you can start with 600 effective resources. I'm actually in favor of fixed crates now that I've expressed the feeling into words.

You should never build the consulate with 2 villagers, that's just inefficient. If you're going to place your consulate so late that you risk housing yourself then you should've just built a shrine before starting your consulate, as it will make up for the vs lost from the Portuguese consulate before it is completed anyway. In fact, you should always build your shrine ASAP if you have livestock or an in-base wood treasure. The only reason you wait for the consulate is so that you don't have to shift your villagers around as much to get the wood to place the consulate.

How do you feel about -100w -100f +1 Consulate Rickshaw?

@Garja while I understand what you're saying, Japan is already easily the most consulate-reliant civ of the 3 Asian civs. Excluding it from any build is simply bad.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

I dont think Japan necessarily needs to start consulate everytime.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by yemshi »

A japan cons start would almost unviable with -100f,-100w regardless of the rickshaw.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Forjustice »

:ohmy: Japan doesn’t need any nerf. :sad:
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

yemshi wrote:A japan cons start would almost unviable with -100f,-100w regardless of the rickshaw.

I don’t follow
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by yemshi »

Mitoe wrote:How do you feel about -100w -100f +1 Consulate Rickshaw?


If you wanted to rush with japanese cons with the -100f you would lose the game at 0:00. And you if you were to start with 100w youd also have to gather 25w. if you were to start with 200w you'd have unused 75w for the first 3mins of the game.
While it'd buff the port cons start it'd heavily nerf any other start.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

Ah, I see what you’re saying. I misread your first post.

Yeah, I thought it would still be fine, but that was before I suggested the -100f as well.

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