Japanese Discussion Thread

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Serbia Atomiswave
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Atomiswave »

gamevideo113 wrote:
zoom wrote:
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I dislike buffing Toshogu, since it's already the only viable option.

Agreed, toshugu is already the best wonder to age to colonial, it doesn't sound appealing to me to buff it. To be fair though 95% of jap games that i see involve toshugu to colonial so actually it wouldn't really make a big difference (from 95% to 100%).


Whatever you do with Japan(except buffing other wonders which is unlikely to happen), Toshugu will remain only viable option in almost all games. That's why i don't think its bad idea to apply small xp buff to it.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

I think toshogu is a bit overrated. At this point i guess i wouldn't really mind it if it got buffed. Still not a fan though.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Goodspeed »

Toshogu is not getting buffed. It's already by far the best option and there are plenty of other ways to buff Japan that aren't ugly.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Like which options?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

I think all of the changes to Japan thus far should just be removed, and be replaced with just an extra food crate and a golden pavilion nerf (make the bonus be off of the base stats, not modified).
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Atomiswave wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:
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Agreed, toshugu is already the best wonder to age to colonial, it doesn't sound appealing to me to buff it. To be fair though 95% of jap games that i see involve toshugu to colonial so actually it wouldn't really make a big difference (from 95% to 100%).


Whatever you do with Japan(except buffing other wonders which is unlikely to happen), Toshugu will remain only viable option in almost all games. That's why i don't think its bad idea to apply small xp buff to it.
Seems better to buff other wonders, to me.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Well that would be for the sake of buffing (or increase options if anything), not because the civ actually needs it to be competitive?
Unless you buff other wonders to the point it is too much, I don't see them being viable competitively in colonial.

I would like to play Japan with 250 export from Toshogu, so I am more and more convinced that would be the only possible buff if we really need any.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Goodspeed wrote:
From an archived staff thread:
A change must:
- Address a civ balance issue, or
- Address a larger-scale balance issue which is apparent in a wide variety of match ups (for example dragoon nerf, potential water changes).


A change must not:
- Standardize a unit. For example in the case of uhlans we chose to nerf HP and not attack.
- Remove or nerf techs or shipments which are unique to a civ.
- Remove or nerf a civ bonus.

A change should:
- In the case of a buff target an aspect of the civ which is unique to it (examples include Dutch bank changes, Ottoman Silk Road, Spanish unction).
- In the case of a nerf focus on the civ's start, in order to affect it as generally as possible.
- Be tweakable.

A change should not:
- Encourage a play style which is already prevalent with the civ or in the meta game.
- Discourage a play style which is rarely seen with the civ or in the meta game.
- Introduce an exception to an otherwise consistent game design (for example making TPs more expensive only for a certain civ).


These are guidelines, not axioms, and almost all of our changes are in line with them.

Quoting Goodspeed from the British discussion thread.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

+50 export doesn't encourage any specific playstyle. Could be used with classic port cons shrine boom to get besteiros out sooner, or with jap consulate to get military rickshaw earlier. It probably also makes Spain consulate techs a bit more viable.
It is just a small buff I could see myself making use of and which relates to Japan early slowness.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

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Post by zoom »

For reference, and in case it interests anyone:

Shrine (base) gather-rates are 0.14f, 0.1w and 0.1c. Shrine gatherers (animals) add .07 each (certain larger gatherers add more) to these values. The Toshogu Shrine adds 50% of the same values (0.07, 0.05 and 0.05, respectively). Heavenly Kami does the exact same.

Accordingly, Shrine gather-rates without gatherers and with Heavenly Kami and the Toshogu Shrine are 0.28f and 0.2w and 0.2c.

Tempo Reforms (an Industrial Age Shrine improvement costing 500f, w & c, each) adds 350%, 300% and 300%, respectively, of the base values, to Shrine gather-rates.

Accordingly, Shrine gather-rates without gatherers and with Heavenly Kami and the Toshogu Shrine and Tempo Reforms are 0.77f, 0.5w and 0.5c.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

How about decreasing Shrine cost by 5w?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:I would like to play Japan with 250 export from Toshogu, so I am more and more convinced that would be the only possible buff if we really need any.
This confuses me.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

zoom wrote:How about decreasing Shrine cost by 5w?

Reasonable, but probably too good. I mean, are we straight up assuming Jap is really struggling that much to deserve an actual generic buff?
We can test that.

We might as well buff shrines base gathering rates slightly and increase the cost of tempo reforms (quite a good tech for the price).
Again the problem is the risk of making Japan too strong.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

It’s not really an assumption. I think it’s safe to say that the majority of players have agreed that Japan is pretty weak for a long time now.

I actually like the idea to buff the export on the toshugu, even if it does make other wonders in age 2 even less viable than they already are. But really, you could add some pretty significant buffs to the other wonders in Colonial and they still wouldn’t really be used; the toshugu simply synergizes with all of Japan’s builds too well to not be used. So I actually think buffing it is fine as long as it’s not obvious which wonder you should use for the other ages.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

It's already pretty obvious that people age to colonial with toshogu, to fortress with pavillion and to industrial with shogunate, it simply always happens.
I must say it's not easy for me to make these arguments given my profile pic but what about buffing Torii Gates so that it also affects the base expereince trickle? 1 samurai is a bit awkward to have in early colonial so maybe remove that as a compensation for the buff?

To be frank i think Torii Gates could become better than Toshugu with this buff. Might be too powerful. So i wouldn't apply a 50% buff, rather a 20% buff to start experimenting with it.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

Shogunate to Fortress is good too, people just don't do it for whatever reason.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

In current meta I think shogunate to fortess is better. Half a card, daymio and cheaper units is better than unit buff and 6 yumi
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

Yeah, I agree with that. The main reason Pavilion became meta in the first place was because people used to stay Colonial a lot longer and already had a Daimyo.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Yep, and shogunate bug.
Anyway, it is indeed possible to make other wonders more viable but, as I said, the moment they become viable the buff is too big. For example shogunate could be a viable colonial wonder if it provided a daimyo instead of the XP but that would be too good.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by yemshi »

The shogunate would simply be OP.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by wardyb1 »

I'll suggest something from left of field. Buff Samurai (probably with a cost reduction, maybe even a train time reduction as well) to be more viable early. I always feel as Japan that when lets say Russia comes storming in, that they have no real defence against any decent cav mass. Ashi's seem to struggle against cav early without vet ups or the 4.5x multiplier, and yumi's without a large mass struggle to make an impact unless walled up in a pocket. Japan also from experience struggles to engage into fights without relying on consulate clubs to pop onto the army to snare, as Japs often lack the ability to run a nagi opening.

Buffing samurai to allow them to actually be effective without just decimating your own resources would mean you don't have to use all your export on clubs allowing for build diversity in defending against rushes. Japs would then find it much easier to pick off infantry in TC range and actually take a fight instead of getting ran over by a cav mass that they can't kill before being sieged to death. The buff would still mean Japan would have to be selective in when to engage and when to pop units into a fight without making them too braindead to turtle early.

Anyway probably a terrible idea but I feel as just buffing what Japan is already good at (shrines) or just making them faster through whatever means (making them unrushable) would defeat the purpose of trying to achieve balance as they would just become too good again. Just trying to provoke discussion anyway, about maybe a different direction for attempting to buff civs.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user »

Can you imagine Aiz with buffed samurai?

no, por favor, mamá
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

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Post by wardyb1 »

deleted_user wrote:Can you imagine Aiz with buffed samurai?

no, por favor, mamá

You've found me out. All I wanted was Aiz Samurai streams :(
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Samurai buff would be pretty exciting. After all even dopps were buffed with +10 hp. Dopps now have more hp, more area of effect, way better multipliers and the cost is basically the same. Samurai only have more resistance and more attack, which is offset by lower multipliers and lower area of effect. (They are also cheaper and have better siege but the difference is close to irrelevant.)
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

what about adding the daiymo upon age up to age 2

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