Japanese Discussion Thread

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Italy Garja
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

It would be OP alone with the shogunate , imagine with any wonder.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by lemmings121 »

my google skills failed me, someone with a better memory can point what was the diference from current japs to OP wcs japs?

edit: ok i think I found it
•Japan
oToshogu Shrine
Bonus to shrines reduced to x1.5 down from x2.33
o Consulate ‘Isolation’ choice
Reduced bonus damage to 5% down from 10%
oAshigaru Musketeer
Ranged attacks reduced to 24 down from 26


.
I would sugest instead of going in random untested directions, just revert part of the old nerf, like bringing toshogu bonus to x2.0.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by lemmings121 »

And to be totally honest, I still think people underate current japs,before the above changes japs would rek every civ on every map, and now they are suposedly trash tier..
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

lemmings121 wrote:my google skills failed me, someone with a better memory can point what was the diference from current japs to OP wcs japs?

edit: ok i think I found it
•Japan
oToshogu Shrine
Bonus to shrines reduced to x1.5 down from x2.33
o Consulate ‘Isolation’ choice
Reduced bonus damage to 5% down from 10%
oAshigaru Musketeer
Ranged attacks reduced to 24 down from 26


.
I would sugest instead of going in random untested directions, just revert part of the old nerf, like bringing toshogu bonus to x2.0.

And then ep nerfs, more hunts so you dont end up shrining the opponents hunts, lower wall hp and ofc the shogunate nerf.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Safer resources is indeed an indirect nerf to originary Japan, a legit one of course.
More hunts however is not necessarily bad for Japan because of better shrining.
I agree that reverts of old nerfs should always been looked first when considering buffing a civ.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by KINGofOsmane »

momuuu wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:my google skills failed me, someone with a better memory can point what was the diference from current japs to OP wcs japs?

edit: ok i think I found it
•Japan
oToshogu Shrine
Bonus to shrines reduced to x1.5 down from x2.33
o Consulate ‘Isolation’ choice
Reduced bonus damage to 5% down from 10%
oAshigaru Musketeer
Ranged attacks reduced to 24 down from 26


.
I would sugest instead of going in random untested directions, just revert part of the old nerf, like bringing toshogu bonus to x2.0.

And then ep nerfs, more hunts so you dont end up shrining the opponents hunts, lower wall hp and ofc the shogunate nerf.


lets not forget yumi nerf
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by t3rror1sta »

agree.
Jap still cant hold britsh, for example.
Shrines need a buff.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Nah. Japs can "hold" Brits just as many times Brits manage to kill Japan before it gets out of control, if not more.
I'd say the only civs that Japan really struggle to handle are India, Aztecs, Russia, maybe Iro and Otto still. Semi FF civs with shrine hunting + age up can be gnarly, but again it depends on a lot of factors.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by sdrawkcab_delleps »

t3rror1sta wrote:agree.
Jap still cant hold britsh, for example.
Shrines need a buff.

I think buffing shrines is the wrong approach.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Kynesie »

Some thoughts

In recent meta, 2v-tori instead of kami-toshogu become an usual strat. People learn how to counter shrine boom more and more easily, like semi TP HI into fortress timing , early spy... so alternative strategies are emerging. Tori isn t bad, but the samurai must have a purpose: counter an FB or down a middle map tp , take big treasures (mainly on the RE, there isn t interesting treasures at 4.30 on FP).

In correct level games, once the opponent has seen 2v first, he will not take the risk of build in the middle and the samurai will be useless.

The boost xp tori is really interesting, but to maximize the bonus you need a lot of xp, so stay age 2, make units, fight, ashi attack card and daymio come very fast.

About kami boom , it's still very good on maps like siberia, kamchatcka. On standard maps, the object of 20 temples is unrealistic, 12 already seems better.

Gold start fuck japs ​​a lot, when other civ can make a market, or just 1 house and up. Market will slow down your age up, 5% on berries gather rate is really different from 10% on heard rate ... and gather 107w for consulate + shrine is close to suicide.

2v and 3 fishing boats would be better cards than 2v * 2 and 3fishing boats * 2 (less auto scout).

In semi FF meta, when you reach age 3, you need orchard, you need +2 range yumi to fight with skirm and you need cannons versus falcs, so shogunate is certainly better, it allows to survive.

Falcs + culv counter hardly japs, yabusame are ok versus 2 falcs but not really when there is more canons.they are supposed to be counter cannons but you have to invest more resources into yabu than opponenent into canons...
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

I agree with most except that you can go 2v (and and market if 100g start) and Toshogu, not necessarily Tori.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by yemshi »

How can a start where you have to gather 50w and still have 75c left and then have to age with 800f be good?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Kynesie »

I think we all agree 2v market is possible, but far to be as good as european market start.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

2v market is fking shit though lol
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

yemshi wrote:How can a start where you have to gather 50w and still have 75c left and then have to age with 800f be good?

You buy the wood obviously. So it's only 50g to gather and actually less than that with a coin treasure. You also spare 50w in the process and your first shrine should be up a little earlier. Also because the first card is 2v, any xp from those buildings or just treasures is valuable. 800f is somewhat compensated by having 2 extra vills as opposed to no real ealry boost from kami card. Also market building time is way inferior to the consulate one.


Kynesie wrote:I think we all agree 2v market is possible, but far to be as good as european market start.

Whether or not it is as good, it still can be an improvement to the classic chop 107w and age at 5 min strat.
Also, for its cost (sometimes entirely for free) I'd say the berry upgrade isn't bad at all. In fact, considering that villagers gather literally every single unit of food from berries (no depletion) and that your villagers have virtually zero walking time it's pretty damn good.

In any case, it is not the market per se but the whole strategy. As I said, this is supposedly an improvement, meta-based at least, from the classic aging late with useless 100g and losing shrines all over the place. It is also, supposedly, an improvement over the classic Tori strat where you send garbage stuff like 5 ashi and/or renunce at the Toshogu boost for the entire colonial age.
Because you didn't send kami (which btw one could still send as second card with any decent xp treasure in age1) you're not shrine booming in transition. Instead you focus on vill ups and on making units right from the start. Then with 600w cards you add consulate and more shrines. Another 600w can be sent for more shrines and a second military building. Another military building could come from Jap consulate. You can skip port consulate at this point so you also save 100 exports. The 2v are going to pay off and because you don't chop wood for shrines you spare resources for units and market ups.
It is obviously a less boomy - or rather a less ideally efficient - way to play Japan but it can still work, considering that a 100g start is also worse for other civs.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

With a gold start 300w isn't that bad i guess.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

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Post by Garja »

I'm not a fan of 300w honestly. I'd prefer a solid 2v. But I agree, if anything, that the value of the cards for Asian civs should be considered in the light of their practical use before anything else.
Since Asian civs always end up with more eco than other civs by the time they hit colonial (at least in terms of gathering potential) the primary focus should be in getting a good practical grasp on the game rather than going for the most efficient build possible.
The whole reason Jap and India do their classic boomy strats is because that supposedly set them up for the maximum chances to win eventually. Problem in current meta is that they don't always reach that point. Therefore they need other ways that imply sacrifing part of their superior eco for some short term benefit.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Very map dependant but there is mountain warrior as well actually.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

In a bunch of match ups I strongly prefer 2v (even better, 3 boats) strats and then just hiding the few shrines I do make on the corners on the map. For one, everyone is practised against standard japan by now so they'll have a streamlined build against HK and even then going 2 vill gives you more opportunity to outplay (which is nice if you think you're the better player).
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

By the way, I just wanna throw another strategic idea worth testing in my opinion. This time with the classic port consulate shrine boom.
Cutting vills in the transition to colonial and moving all of them to wood to drop more shrines. The idea is that this way your shrine count is higher early on and it is harder for the opponent to prevent you from dropping more shrines when he has units out.
Also because shrines gather resources out of nowehere while vills cost food, you should be able to save couple hundreds food on your berries which may come in handy later on. At the same time 600w card can be invested in more yumis rather than shrines and shrines can be left on food during that time so berries last even longer.

In all of this I obviously assume the lack of those 4-5 vills in transition is compensated by 3-4 more shrines. The eco will be clearly inferior to normal shrine boom, but the side advantages may once again be more important than the sheer efficiency of the build.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by lemmings121 »

momuuu wrote:which is nice if you think you're the better player

you mean is nice to everyone on esoc?
[spoiler=spoiler]I should win.[/spoiler]
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by yemshi »

Garja wrote:
yemshi wrote:How can a start where you have to gather 50w and still have 75c left and then have to age with 800f be good?

You buy the wood obviously. So it's only 50g to gather and actually less than that with a coin treasure. You also spare 50w in the process and your first shrine should be up a little earlier. Also because the first card is 2v, any xp from those buildings or just treasures is valuable. 800f is somewhat compensated by having 2 extra vills as opposed to no real ealry boost from kami card. Also market building time is way inferior to the consulate one.


Dunno what I was thinking
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Mitoe »

lemmings121 wrote:And to be totally honest, I still think people underate current japs,before the above changes japs would rek every civ on every map, and now they are suposedly trash tier..

Those are some pretty big nerfs, though. They nerfed their eco, scaling, and main unit all in one go.

People say Germany sucks now (they don't, they're just not OP), after changing only the Uhlan. Imagine if you also made SWs slightly weaker and then nerfed their cav upgrades on top of that. That's basically what happened to Japan.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by lemmings121 »

Mitoe wrote:
lemmings121 wrote:And to be totally honest, I still think people underate current japs,before the above changes japs would rek every civ on every map, and now they are suposedly trash tier..

Those are some pretty big nerfs, though. They nerfed their eco, scaling, and main unit all in one go.

People say Germany sucks now (they don't, they're just not OP), after changing only the Uhlan. Imagine if you also made SWs slightly weaker and then nerfed their cav upgrades on top of that. That's basically what happened to Japan.


I see.
With weaker walls and yumis, its understandable that the civ isnt top anymore.
I just wanted to point out how seemingly small changes (only a few % in some places) could move the civ back to "omfg nothing counters this, lets just play ashi wars", so that any change that we make, isnt too big.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by KINGofOsmane »

they werent 2 great before the changes also , they are good on re coz oponent is out of food at 13min xd
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