Japanese Discussion Thread

No Flag dyddyd91
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by dyddyd91 »

How about giving 3vil to japan This is not a big change. Since there are already 3boats
for japan and 3boat works like 3vil until market upgrade
japan has been forced sending kami or 2vil in land map This change will solve this issue
And nerf yumi attack to 18 and revert age3 card nerf
This is like a changes for india nerf their unit and slightly buff eco
so that give more option to japan
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

That way Japan could send 3v twice, especially with at TP. That would be certainly too good.
Nerfing yumi attack isn't ideal imo because it makes even harder to deal with rushes. The yumi card nerf effect is only from fortress and on where yumi really get out of control. I do see the reasons behind these ideas tho. 19 attack in colonial seems a bit overkill (18 still good) and without hp buff the +2 range card is somewhat less desirable and thus less worth to send.
Overall we can't really treath Japan exactly like India because of these details. Also the buff India received may even be too much.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by dyddyd91 »

You can make 3vil card available only once. and with 3vil rush is not a problem but it's just my opinion.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Kynesie »

3v make all other age 1 cards useless...
Atm we got many "not really good" options, but it creates some diversity. And 3v is just like european civ.

There is some others options to think about.
Change gold start crate into food,
Revert yumi card nerf or delete yumi age 3 card and give a +2range with veteran up (just +2 range for an age 3 card is a really bad card , but but obligatory to be able to fight versus skirms )
Maybe think about samourai stat/speed or low bonus versus cav. Think about yabusame really hight coast.
Why not a little buff for tori and or toshogu.
Increase XP from spain consulate at the same production as a TP could create new strat..
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

u cant really double 3vill because u get housed, (same why u cant double 3 boat) but yeah 3vill kinda removes 300w/ kami options
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Ye I thought about that. From a balance standpoint a single 3v card would be ok. However from a design point it creates an exception. We can test this but personally I would leave this option as a last resort because of that.
I was thinking tho that even 3v + kami card is quite powerful. Kami card is in fact not inferior to 3v for Japan, I'd say. This explains why it is the first choice for Japanese play. At the very least its value is something between 2 and 3 vills. This raises the question whether or not the problem with Japan is the first card. I'd say japan has good enough first cards. Both 2v and kami card seem satisfactory to me.
If anything, at least for what it concerns the short term, it's the wonder options that are somewhat lacking. India has 4 wonder options that are worth between 400 and 500 resources. China has the summer palace which is worth 400 resources.
Probably, it's the combinations of the two things, since both India and China also have superior first cards worth respectively 3.5 and 3 vills.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

honestly its not really the 1st card thats an issue, its their age time.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

The thing is that you can't just say "kami is worth 2-3 vils" or "kami is good/bad", it's a super situational card. It forces you to commit into shrine booming, if you want the card to pay off. On the other hand, 3 vils are always good, no matter what.
So it's kind of a mix between the age up time being a bit late, kami being slow and the colo unit shipments being mediocre (5 yumis is just low value and 5 ashis is not so great because ashis kind of suck early on) that makes Japan feel slow early on. I don't think it's just the age up time or the first car on their own.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Age up time is the most overrated problem of Japan and of other Asian civs.
If it were the single major problem, one could simply pay some idle time (most times it is less than 25 seconds) and skip the last vill to reach 800f a bit earlier. In fact that's what I've been doing with certain strats with India and China. Furthermore, I think this is in fact the way Asian civs are supposed to be played. Not considering this option is like ignoring half of the reason why they can age up while still training vills.

Back to Japan supposed weakness, I'd say colo shipments are fine. They're all more or less useful although it is clear that they are inferior to the european counterparts because they can be sent twice.
I agree it's the overall inefficiency of the civ that makes it feel slow early on. First card is somewhat inferior to 3v (in the short term that is), all colonial wonders are worth about 300 resouces or so, and ye the cards are all about 15-20% weaker than usual.
With that said, Japan still retains tons of long term advantages compared to the average civs. Eco, units and starving mechanics are all top tier. So we should be really careful boosting Japan early progression. It's easy to go from a situation where they struggle to get past the sticky point and a situation where they get past it easily and then just rocket up becoming unstoppable.
That's why I think the most logical solution, if anything, is to look for a "utility tool" like exports rather than a direct eco boost.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Kaiserklein wrote:The thing is that you can't just say "kami is worth 2-3 vils" or "kami is good/bad", it's a super situational card. It forces you to commit into shrine booming, if you want the card to pay off. On the other hand, 3 vils are always good, no matter what.
So it's kind of a mix between the age up time being a bit late, kami being slow and the colo unit shipments being mediocre (5 yumis is just low value and 5 ashis is not so great because ashis kind of suck early on) that makes Japan feel slow early on. I don't think it's just the age up time or the first car on their own.

Yeah I agree, its as usual a combination of things. Also the fact that having to go on berries isn't really great is definitely a contributing factor towards japan feeling underwhelming.

I think it's worth looking directly at ashigarus too; they're actually an exceptionally shitty unit for their cost in colonial. If ashi are just a little bit stronger, it could be worth making them which in return allows japan to be more proactive on the map and thus do a better job at defending their shrines. But the meta has, rightfully so imo, fully shifted towards yumi (+ wall) basically because ashigarus turn out to not be good. The result is that you will struggle contesting even 5 pikes sieging your houses as yumi can just die to cav.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Ashigarus are another example of sub-efficient tool (early on) but with long term huge potential. And I'm not talking only about the way they scale with several upgrades but the fact that they can also win games with raids. Ashigaru speed + somewhat hard to damage eco (as opposed to just raiding yourself vs other civs) is always a latent asset of Japan.
I'd say, by the way, that the reason why Ashi are not so employed anymore is that players start appreciating the value of micro and countersystem. That, plus nerfed ashis, makes pure bow rushes an actual threat as it should be (just think about the risk of opening musks as Brits vs a bow rush).
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Buff Cherry Blossom Festival card to 20%?
But idk really. Is a better eco what japan needs in order to be more balanced? Imo it would be better to change one or two wonders for colonial, like 4 yumi to pavillion or sth like that.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

momuuu wrote:I think it's worth looking directly at ashigarus too; they're actually an exceptionally shitty unit for their cost in colonial. If ashi are just a little bit stronger, it could be worth making them which in return allows japan to be more proactive on the map and thus do a better job at defending their shrines. But the meta has, rightfully so imo, fully shifted towards yumi (+ wall) basically because ashigarus turn out to not be good. The result is that you will struggle contesting even 5 pikes sieging your houses as yumi can just die to cav.

The problem is that buffing ashis will make them even more broken in mid-late game. One way to do it without taking that risk would be to only buff their hand attack, because the main problem of ashis imo is that they are a trash anti cav. They don't perform that bad at range fights, they're just not great. But they do suck sweaty ass against cav, with their pathetic 10 melee attack. Maybe buff it to 12 or so, and then people will maybe start using ashis instead of yumis as anti cav. I'm just afraid that the close combat card would make ashis super strong against cav then, but that could be tweaked.

Garja wrote:I'd say, by the way, that the reason why Ashi are not so employed anymore is that players start appreciating the value of micro and countersystem. That, plus nerfed ashis, makes pure bow rushes an actual threat as it should be (just think about the risk of opening musks as Brits vs a bow rush).

Is bow rushing really a thing nowadays? How does brit struggle against a bow rush, and even japan? It's not like bows beat musks/ashis, let alone lbs/yumis...
Even when I play on fucking nilla now they do semi ffs lol, a couple years ago it was tower rushes or double rax bow rushes everywhere

Garja wrote:If it were the single major problem, one could simply pay some idle time (most times it is less than 25 seconds) and skip the last vill to reach 800f a bit earlier. In fact that's what I've been doing with certain strats with India and China. Furthermore, I think this is in fact the way Asian civs are supposed to be played. Not considering this option is like ignoring half of the reason why they can age up while still training vills.

But skipping vils early on is just terrible? Not talking about 10/10 cause that's a completely different strat, but I mean, why would you ever idle up to 25 seconds (= deleting 1 vil) to save 100f and age up a few seconds earlier? And why would you skip vils because you can train some while aging, it's unrelated?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

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Post by Mitoe »

Personally I really dislike the idea of 3v for Japan. Feels so boring and standardizing, and I don't think it will even solve any of their problems. Like Hazza said, the problem is their age time--or at least the inconsistency of their age time.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

winner of previous tourney speaks alot of sense, when playing japan any time i can age at 4:30ish it feels like a competitive civ and you can get away with more stuff
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

So +100f seems the reasonable option?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Kaiserklein wrote:Is bow rushing really a thing nowadays? How does brit struggle against a bow rush, and even japan? It's not like bows beat musks/ashis, let alone lbs/yumis...
Even when I play on fucking nilla now they do semi ffs lol, a couple years ago it was tower rushes or double rax bow rushes everywhere

If you do a good all in xbow rush there is a good chance the Japan player won't hold without precise play.
Same thing for Brits if they start 1 rax musk.
But skipping vils early on is just terrible? Not talking about 10/10 cause that's a completely different strat, but I mean, why would you ever idle up to 25 seconds (= deleting 1 vil) to save 100f and age up a few seconds earlier? And why would you skip vils because you can train some while aging, it's unrelated?

The cost of idling the TC for about 15 seconds (unlikely it is more than that) is just a bunch of resources, more or less the equivalent of a treasure. Asian civs already have an eco advantage over all other civs in age1 because they train vills in transition and because wonders have passive abilities which generally grant additional eco. The trade off between gaining age up time and losing a bunch of resources is favorable for the first.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gamevideo113 »

Garja wrote:The cost of idling the TC for about 15 seconds (unlikely it is more than that) is just a bunch of resources, more or less the equivalent of a treasure. Asian civs already have an eco advantage over all other civs in age1 because they train vills in transition and because wonders have passive abilities which generally grant additional eco. The trade off between gaining age up time and losing a bunch of resources is favorable for the first.

Idling TC for 15 seconds means that every vill that you train after will come 15 seconds later, so in the long run you'll lose a lot more than just a treasure. Not saying it's absolutely terrible but it think you are overestimating the benefits over the downsides. At this point i think it would be better to send 300 food and get the fast age up with that without idling TC. Sending 2 vills and then idle the TC soon after doesn't make a lot of sense imo.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

15 secs idle is nowhere close to being that bad. It's basically 0.64f * 15 * number of vills after that. Basically in the first 10 minutes of game it is about 170f lost, so pretty much irrelevant. Seriously, in 99% of games you're going to have 15 secs idle TC anyway over the course of the game. That's not a game losing factor. Moreover, and I think this is the point here, Asian civs basically spare extra eco. At least Japan and India do, China a bit less generally.
300f opposed to any other age1 card is way more value lost than that. By the way I wasn't talking about 2v strat here. I'm just saying if age up time is that much of a problem just age at the 13v instead of 14v no idle with Japan. Blackstar used to do that every game (altho in mirror there is no reason to do that).
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Rikikipu »

Their age up inconsistency is somewhat painful but the civ is still fine with that. This is the civ which probably suffers the most from ep maps. On RE, they don't struggler with low resources at base compared to other civs, maps use to be slightly bigger overall, and water is more predominant there.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by dyddyd91 »

Touching japan age time is risky, because with kami shrine only cost 75
Let's imagine 100f buff with japan if u get 90food treassure it become 190food boost this is hard to break
About wonder torri gate is fine atm with 3boat Maybe 100 food buff would be enough.
If u guys think torri is bad just give 200w instead of samurai
if you want to buff toshogu 40export should be enough i guess 50 is too much
And kami toshogu play is really boring that is all about praying for good crate
condition and get good wood treassure so get many shrine as possible as you can
like until 6min u just only build shrine brainlessly
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by KINGofOsmane »

I dont see torri beeing good tbh
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by lemmings121 »

what about 2ashis with tori gate instead of a samurai?

so 300w good toshogu start, other starts, go tori.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by KINGofOsmane »

why with 200w tori?
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