Japanese Discussion Thread

Netherlands momuuu
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Lots of words zoi, but youre not really being clear with them.

Doesnt it seem that golden pavillion not scaling on basestats is what makes japan scale so insanely well. I calculated before that cuir upgrades scaling on vet stats instead of colonial stats is pretty huge. An attack boost scaling on current stats is even more insane in that regard.
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Tuvalu gibson
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

zoom wrote:
gibson wrote:Yea no game that Ryan plays means anything, cause he's so much better than everyone else he can make bad things look good..... Shit he had half the community convinced that age 2 Spain was good cause he was beating a bunch of pr 30s and rusty good players with it but when he actually played like prince and sommpu he lost as much as he won....
Is this you trolling?

ofc ryan couldn't ever lose to shady swedes
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New Zealand zoom
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Jerom wrote:Lots of words zoi, but youre not really being clear with them.

Doesnt it seem that golden pavillion not scaling on basestats is what makes japan scale so insanely well. I calculated before that cuir upgrades scaling on vet stats instead of colonial stats is pretty huge. An attack boost scaling on current stats is even more insane in that regard.
That's unfortunate. I can see how it isn't very well worded in terms of communication. The gist of what I'm saying is that exceptions are not inherently bad, and whether they should figure or not is entirely a matter of opinion. On the contrary, they are actually essential to the unique character of civilizations – after all, conformity does not breed diversity. In my view, the coincidental exception whereby a given exception may be undesirable, would lie in its inherent problems. This is of course generally speaking.


As for your question, it seems to me that the Golden Pavilion is one contributing factor of Japanese's great scaling – it does not seem to me that the wonder's effect(s) being multiplicative in particular is the single, paramount factor. Please note that this is entirely unrelated to the above, as the wonder – like all others – is an inherent exception in the first place, and the effect(s) being multiplicative is hardly interesting in this regard – it's even possible that it is indeed an inherent problem. Summa summarum, it seems I ostensibly agree with you, although I am clearly less convinced than you are.

P.S. Mind the belated reply.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

gibson wrote:
zoom wrote:
gibson wrote:Yea no game that Ryan plays means anything, cause he's so much better than everyone else he can make bad things look good..... Shit he had half the community convinced that age 2 Spain was good cause he was beating a bunch of pr 30s and rusty good players with it but when he actually played like prince and sommpu he lost as much as he won....
Is this you trolling?

ofc ryan couldn't ever lose to shady swedes
I'm asking because the basis on which you seemingly discredit Ryan's deductions on game balance, is absurd.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

zoom wrote:
Jerom wrote:Lots of words zoi, but youre not really being clear with them.

Doesnt it seem that golden pavillion not scaling on basestats is what makes japan scale so insanely well. I calculated before that cuir upgrades scaling on vet stats instead of colonial stats is pretty huge. An attack boost scaling on current stats is even more insane in that regard.
That's unfortunate. I can see how it isn't very well worded in terms of communication. The gist of what I'm saying is that exceptions are not inherently bad, and whether they should figure or not is entirely a matter of opinion. On the contrary, they are actually essential to the unique character of civilizations – after all, conformity does not breed diversity. In my view, the coincidental exception whereby a given exception may be undesirable, would lie in its inherent problems. This is of course generally speaking.


As for your question, it seems to me that the Golden Pavilion is one contributing factor of Japanese's great scaling – it does not seem to me that the wonder's effect(s) being multiplicative in particular is the single, paramount factor. Please note that this is entirely unrelated to the above, as the wonder – like all others – is an inherent exception in the first place, and the effect(s) being multiplicative is hardly interesting in this regard – it's even possible that it is indeed an inherent problem. Summa summarum, it seems I ostensibly agree with you, although I am clearly less convinced than you are.

P.S. Mind the belated reply.

I mean, the golden pavillion perfectly fits the "japan units scale ridiculously well" theme. If its something that needs to be fixed? I dont know about that one.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

It does. That is beside my point though, which I hope is cleared in my above reply to you.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

zoom wrote:
gibson wrote:
Show hidden quotes

ofc ryan couldn't ever lose to shady swedes
I'm asking because the basis on which you seemingly discredit Ryan's deductions on game balance, is absurd.
How does Ryan beating lt colonels demonstrate anything more about game balance than me beating 2nd lts?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

It's not the same thing. In any case you should watch at the substance of the game and not the final result.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

Garja wrote:It's not the same thing. In any case you should watch at the substance of the game and not the final result.
ofc it's not exactly the same thing, but the point is you can't take the result of a game between two players who are not even close in skill level and then use that result to justify making a balance change or one civ being better than another etc etc. Neither can you take a game with said skill difference, just look at the "substance" of the game, and then use that to justify making a balance change or one civ is better than another etc etc.

I.E mancl beats zoi spain vs china, but we're going to buff spain anyway because if zoi had been a better player he would have won. Whats the point of even playing then? You can just do everything on paper and not even bother playing a single game.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by lemmings121 »

As one of those pr30 who h20 bashed with spain in qs I agree, you cant learn anything from that, he just outplays us to a point where balance is irrelevant.

Tbh, a 10 pr difererence is enough for anyone to win any matchup, even with re balance on a bad map.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by pecelot »

well I think victor_swe is 10 pr better than sgts, so you must be wronk :!:
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

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Post by sudmakmak »

Play japan only.
who can go Champion next tour.
GG
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by pecelot »

GG
no fcking re
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by KINGofOsmane »

sudmakmak wrote:Play japan only.
who can go Champion next tour.
GG

gg!
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

On a serious note, while I think there could be some nerfs to Japan, the main reason why people think that Japan is really good is that it takes a fair amount of skill to beat a good Japan Player. I will only ever mirror Japan because playing against them is annoying, not because Ill loose outright if I play another civ.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by _H2O »

Yeah that's how I feel about Brit and Aztec. We all have civs like that. I also avoid Japan mirrors because since they nerfed ashi like 8 years ago I can't seem to win them anymore :)
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

The thing is that Jap, Brits and Aztecs are in fact strong, not just a feeling.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

Garja wrote:The thing is that Jap, Brits and Aztecs are in fact strong, not just a feeling.

Azzy is without a doubt a good, well balanced civ (something rare on EP 2.0 I might add), and they have no bad matchups, but they arent unbeatable at all. Brits are also very good and well balanced, but they still have a few weaknesses, but the problems is, is that on EP 1.2 there are no civs that can exploit those timings and weaknesses anymore. Japan is generally strong, but also has some weaknesses, and the same problem that British has, no civs on 2.0 can really exploit their timings very well.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by pecelot »

*EP 2.0
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Garja wrote:The thing is that Jap, Brits and Aztecs are in fact strong, not just a feeling.

I think you're horribly confusing opinion with fact.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by blackwidow »

Jerom wrote:
Garja wrote:The thing is that Jap, Brits and Aztecs are in fact strong, not just a feeling.

I think you're horribly confusing opinion with fact.


The only opinion in that sentence was the word "Strong", everyone defines this differently.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

I think Japan is pretty decent right now if you don't do Kami/port consulate every game. I think they could benefit from an extra food crate at the start, a revert to the way of the bow nerf, and fixing the golden pavilion. I have been maining them for the past few months, and I think they were fine on the last EP, still OK now, but IMO they could use a few small changes.

The golden pavilion scales off of the current stats of a unit instead their base stats, leading to insane units (namely yumi). I think the patch team could either make the passive bonus go off of base stats or they could keep the way it works and just nerf it to 10% or something (it is currently 15% iirc). I think that the way of the bow nerf is a step in the general direction of balance, but I don't think that HP was really the problem for yumi, it was mostly the fact that they have like 32 attack in fortress with yumi attack and pavilion.

Japan also seems kinda slow, and I think an extra food crate would make them closer to the average. Or give them a fixed crate start like china, idk.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Still think the way of the bow nerf is stupid, pavillion of colonial stats sounds better, might need a small buff to compensate though
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by fei123456 »

in history, japanese bow, aka "yumi", has LOW range but high damage.
so we should give yumi archer 1.5 rof (like iron troop), but 14 range.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by yemshi »

That would change the game too much, I fear.

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