Japanese Discussion Thread

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Italy Garja
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

Well there is definitely a pattern if you check all the cards. I'd say 75% or so of cards follow the same rules, while others are exceptions and generally there is a clear explanation for that.
I guess yumi card can be turned into 15% for the same reason ashi is 15%, even though ashi used to have 26 base attack and jap cons was 10% boost back then.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

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Post by Hazza54321 »

I wouldn't say no to a yumi nerf however I would change pavilion to 10% and yumi att to 15% I wouldn't nerf their base stats as their early game is already shit, ashi base stats are already cost ineffective
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by sirmusket »

Hazza54321 wrote:I wouldn't say no to a yumi nerf however I would change pavilion to 10% and yumi att to 15% I wouldn't nerf their base stats as their early game is already shit, ashi base stats are already cost ineffective

Ronin too OP :(
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

Hazza54321 wrote:I wouldn't say no to a yumi nerf however I would change pavilion to 10% and yumi att to 15% I wouldn't nerf their base stats as their early game is already shit, ashi base stats are already cost ineffective
their early game isnt shit lol, they're fine early game
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by HeatitUP_ »

Japan is broken in early age 4 and that's pretty much it. I think because Japan gets strong faster than other civs is why people say they are OP.

@gibson Try getting out a decent out of amount vs an average European early pressure and tell me whos eco will win :O The shit civ doesn't even get 400 wood but rather a shrine that pays off later.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

If any eu civs make early pressure vs japan its just autolose for them basicly.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

lordraphael wrote:
Garja wrote:10% should be for 3 units. More than that it is 8% (china) or 5% ( india team card).
Anyway I'm just pointing out how the upgrade values normally work and the exceptions. Then the interpretation can be subjective.
15% on yumi card is "just" -1 attack in practical terms.

to me their is barely any coherent design. Is seems random particularly if you compare the different expansion civs and then differentiate between nilla cards and epxansion pack cards. The design of nilla was coherent but after that it was a mess and you cant really see the pattern in it. At least I cant but hey the great garja ofc can.


there defintiely is a pattern, but no hard rule

15% is for age3 combat cards, 10% is for age2 combat cards (The exceptions are 20% Dragoon combat for Ports in age3 and 15% Boyar Combat for Russia in age2 and 20% Strelet Combat for Russia in age3, 10% Indian Combat card in age3, 20% Merc combat card in age3 for Germany)
15% is for single stat upgrade cards in any age, except when it is for a unique unit, in that case some civs have a 20% upgrade on a single unit (Japan Yumi attack, Spain Rodelero HP, Otto Artillery HP, Aztec Coyote HP, French Skirmisher HP, British Grenadier Attack)

So as we can see, the pattern is 15% for single stat single type upgrade, 10% for double stat singlet type upgrade in age2 and 15% for double stat single type upgrade in age3, while certain civs have 5% or 10% added on any of these cards if they are key units (as considered by the original devs ofcourse, not by the current meta), or sometimes it gets -X% if it targets multiple types of units (such as the india card, because it targets both infantry and cavalry, the chinese IV upgrade card or the indian IV upgrade card, which also gets a bigger reduction because its team, boyars being an exception to this rule)

Then you have cards such as solingen steel, which arent normal upgrades because they trade one stat for another (which imo is very interesting design, even though the cards that exist like that atm arent very viable)

I agree with rapha that this pattern kinda got messed up, but its not after nilla, its after TWC. The TAD upgrades have really weird exceptions, such as 30% naginate hp upgrade, thats so insane and I think EP shoul consider dropping it to 20%.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

HeatitUP_ wrote:Japan is broken in early age 4 and that's pretty much it. I think because Japan gets strong faster than other civs is why people say they are OP.

@gibson Try getting out a decent out of amount vs an average European early pressure and tell me whos eco will win :O The shit civ doesn't even get 400 wood but rather a shrine that pays off later.
i have and I almost never lose to early pressure, except vs brit. Instead Japan often loses to early fortress timings from like French or German cause their semi is too slow
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

gibson wrote:
HeatitUP_ wrote:Japan is broken in early age 4 and that's pretty much it. I think because Japan gets strong faster than other civs is why people say they are OP.

@gibson Try getting out a decent out of amount vs an average European early pressure and tell me whos eco will win :O The shit civ doesn't even get 400 wood but rather a shrine that pays off later.
i have and I almost never lose to early pressure, except vs brit. Instead Japan often loses to early fortress timings from like French or German cause their semi is too slow

who have u played vs?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

Hazza54321 wrote:
gibson wrote:
Show hidden quotes
i have and I almost never lose to early pressure, except vs brit. Instead Japan often loses to early fortress timings from like French or German cause their semi is too slow

who have u played vs?

No one better than lt colonel
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by HeatitUP_ »

Dsy wrote:If any eu civs make early pressure vs japan its just autolose for them basicly.

My point is that you can't double rax with Japan and simply just pop out units like that.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

you dont have to double rax cuz u have yumi and u defend
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

And you can even go double rax early. Even with yumi.
Cause consulate rax tech costs 100 export which is dirty cheap.
You can early even barack plus stable.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

@umeu TAD did mess up the unit upgrade cards, but many of the differences in cards when it comes to Japan are fairly standard and normal. Japan has no combat cards, on cards that only affect one unit, thus the 20% upgrade for yumi and 30% for nagi. Honestly, I wish that they had kept the asian cards more standard and gave the civs normal combat cards and such, but I think we, as those who's hands the game is in, should figure out a way to work with them or around them to achieve greater balance.

Personally, I think that all of japan's upgrade cards are fine except Yumi Attack, which should be nerfed to 15%. What should be changed is honored upgrades, either lowering effect or increasing cost, and nerfing Golden pavilion effect. I also wouldnt be apposed to slight cost increase to yumi (60f 50w instead of 55f 50w), even thought it is probably not the best way to do it.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Dsy wrote:And you can even go double rax early. Even with yumi.
Cause consulate rax tech costs 100 export which is dirty cheap.
You can early even barack plus stable.

Except you're usually on port consulate when you get raxes up, so you don't have that tech available. You want to ship besteiros anyway so you don't really have spare export.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Darwin_ wrote:@umeu TAD did mess up the unit upgrade cards, but many of the differences in cards when it comes to Japan are fairly standard and normal. Japan has no combat cards, on cards that only affect one unit, thus the 20% upgrade for yumi and 30% for nagi. Honestly, I wish that they had kept the asian cards more standard and gave the civs normal combat cards and such, but I think we, as those who's hands the game is in, should figure out a way to work with them or around them to achieve greater balance.

Personally, I think that all of japan's upgrade cards are fine except Yumi Attack, which should be nerfed to 15%. What should be changed is honored upgrades, either lowering effect or increasing cost, and nerfing Golden pavilion effect. I also wouldnt be apposed to slight cost increase to yumi (60f 50w instead of 55f 50w), even thought it is probably not the best way to do it.


They have no combat cards cuz they have daimyo, shogun, jap consulate and pavillion. 30% is just insane. Then again there is also camel attack 30% which i forgot, which is also insane. But i guess its fine in practice
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

umeu wrote:
Darwin_ wrote:@umeu TAD did mess up the unit upgrade cards, but many of the differences in cards when it comes to Japan are fairly standard and normal. Japan has no combat cards, on cards that only affect one unit, thus the 20% upgrade for yumi and 30% for nagi. Honestly, I wish that they had kept the asian cards more standard and gave the civs normal combat cards and such, but I think we, as those who's hands the game is in, should figure out a way to work with them or around them to achieve greater balance.

Personally, I think that all of japan's upgrade cards are fine except Yumi Attack, which should be nerfed to 15%. What should be changed is honored upgrades, either lowering effect or increasing cost, and nerfing Golden pavilion effect. I also wouldnt be apposed to slight cost increase to yumi (60f 50w instead of 55f 50w), even thought it is probably not the best way to do it.


They have no combat cards cuz they have daimyo, shogun, jap consulate and pavillion. 30% is just insane. Then again there is also camel attack 30% which i forgot, which is also insane. But i guess its fine in practice

Yeah, in TAD it seems like the devs really wanted all the asian civs to have a few OP things, and a few very weak things, unlike the Nilla civs which are pretty balanced. Those two cards are quite indicative of that. They have those OP cards, and then balance around them.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

TAD civs were made to be more interesting, to be a change of pace from the average game, which is really nice. Many of my favorite match ups involve TAD civs.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Hazza54321 »

Jerom wrote:TAD civs were made to be more interesting, to be a change of pace from the average game, which is really nice. Many of my favorite match ups involve TAD civs.

except china xD
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Darwin_ »

"he is about ready for right click"
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

Garja wrote:15% cards on a single unit kinda suck, even tho it is just -1 attack in colonial. Normally it is 15% for 2 units and 20% for one. India is an excpetion (30% for camels) and Russia is another one with boyars (15% for 3 units). If we were remaking the game from scratch those things would be a no brainer to change.

Pavillon nerf makes sense because those techs stack over final stats. Also it is age3 so it doesn't nerf Japs vs rushes.
By "those techs stack over final stat's," are you referring to the toggleable bonus?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

gibson wrote:Yea no game that Ryan plays means anything, cause he's so much better than everyone else he can make bad things look good..... Shit he had half the community convinced that age 2 Spain was good cause he was beating a bunch of pr 30s and rusty good players with it but when he actually played like prince and sommpu he lost as much as he won....
Is this you trolling?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

hes kinda right, tho the part about somppu is obviously trolling?!:O
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by KINGofOsmane »

no nerf japan kids
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by zoom »

lordraphael wrote:
Garja wrote:15% cards on a single unit kinda suck, even tho it is just -1 attack in colonial. Normally it is 15% for 2 units and 20% for one. India is an excpetion (30% for camels) and Russia is another one with boyars (15% for 3 units). If we were remaking the game from scratch those things would be a no brainer to change.

Pavillon nerf makes sense because those techs stack over final stats. Also it is age3 so it doesn't nerf Japs vs rushes.
... Furthermore no other unit gets 20 % attack for 1 card except gren card for brits. If anything nerfing yumi attack is bringing an exception in line and not the other way around.
That's a matter of perspective, really. In the context of the civilization, Ashigaru Attack is clearly the exception, given that both of the two corresponding shipments ("Samurai Attack" and "Yumi Attack") align with each-other at twenty per cent. It is my understanding that the implementation of this particular (intra-civilization) exception is the result of popular demand, above anything else. Notably, the (numerical) effect of these three shipments was identical and at least 25% in the original release of TAD.

However positive (i.e currently the case), the assertion that "Samurai Attack" and "Yumi Attack" constitute – to one degree or another – an inter-civilization exception; equally normative (i.e the desired case; a matter of opinion) the subsequent assertion that this – or indeed any other such irregularity – should not be. I consider inter-civilization exceptions as such neither problematic nor undesirable. On the contrary, they are actually essential to the unique character of civilizations – after all, conformity does not breed diversity. In my view, the coincidental exception whereby a given exception may be undesirable, would lie in its inherent problems. This is of course generally speaking.

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