Japanese Discussion Thread

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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by n0el »

The point with Japan is all the opponent has to do is feign pressure and it forces you to wall and not shrine. If they have any way to boom behind that you are most likely fucked if they have any clue.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Jerom wrote:I mean, Japan doesn't seem OP at all tbh.


Japan is still a good civ
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

Its not only a good civ its one of the best civ in the game.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by momuuu »

Don't see why we need to nerf good civs at this point in time.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

We wont see any changes in tournament time i guess.
But im sure japan will be often picked civ for a good reason.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by KINGofOsmane »

Dsy wrote:Its not only a good civ its one of the best civ in the game.

lul after sioux right?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by lordraphael »

n0eL wrote:The point with Japan is all the opponent has to do is feign pressure and it forces you to wall and not shrine. If they have any way to boom behind that you are most likely fucked if they have any clue.

what i find funny is people used to defend with japan without laming walls and they were just fine with it . And when i watch h2os stream i dont see any walls and he still wins. No civ need walls to win games. Walls in this game are stupid and unnecessary, they decrease the skill cap while adding nothing in return. Its just a feature that allows lower players to win games they arent supposed to win.
If i watch old replays i dont see any walls just because they didnt need them to be good. its so sad.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by n0el »

Well to be fair H2O is probably playing players much lower in skill. So it's really not a fair assessment. Even back in peak Japan OPness it wasn't easy to hold. I'm pretty sure airlity did a Russia all in on Ryan in WCG and it took everything he had to hold it
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

Yea no game that Ryan plays means anything, cause he's so much better than everyone else he can make bad things look good..... Shit he had half the community convinced that age 2 Spain was good cause he was beating a bunch of pr 30s and rusty good players with it but when he actually played like prince and sommpu he lost as much as he won....
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by lordraphael »

gibson wrote:Yea no game that Ryan plays means anything, cause he's so much better than everyone else he can make bad things look good..... Shit he had half the community convinced that age 2 Spain was good cause he was beating a bunch of pr 30s and rusty good players with it but when he actually played like prince and sommpu he lost as much as he won....

ok walls are still lame and no civ needs it to win games.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Jerom wrote:Don't see why we need to nerf good civs at this point in time.

Because jap is not only good but also broken. It just scales too well, to such a point that it becomes retarded. So if we can give them a slight nerf, which will make them a bit more average than good, and also reduces that problem of broken lategame, why not ?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

lordraphael wrote:
gibson wrote:Yea no game that Ryan plays means anything, cause he's so much better than everyone else he can make bad things look good..... Shit he had half the community convinced that age 2 Spain was good cause he was beating a bunch of pr 30s and rusty good players with it but when he actually played like prince and sommpu he lost as much as he won....

ok walls are still lame and no civ needs it to win games.
so please tell me how to win as Japan vs Aztec against a player of even skill level
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

Kaiserklein wrote:
Jerom wrote:Don't see why we need to nerf good civs at this point in time.

Because jap is not only good but also broken. It just scales too well, to such a point that it becomes retarded. So if we can give them a slight nerf, which will make them a bit more average than good, and also reduces that problem of broken lategame, why not ?
ye this is why the pavilion nerf and making it scale on base stats is good. It literally has 0 effect on Japan's early game, which is when they're usually most vulnerable, while nerf in their late game which is when they become op. It's actually just about as perfect a nerf as you can ask for tbh
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well one might argue that it would still make their semi ff options weaker, which isn't lategame yet. But I think it's fine since the civ is strong overall anyway so it shouldn't suffer too much from the nerf.
This, and 15% yumi attack instead of 20% in colo, would be nice. Maybe make the daimyo aura scale from basis stats as well if needed.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Jaeger »

gibson wrote:Yea no game that Ryan plays means anything, cause he's so much better than everyone else he can make bad things look good..... Shit he had half the community convinced that age 2 Spain was good cause he was beating a bunch of pr 30s and rusty good players with it but when he actually played like prince and sommpu he lost as much as he won....

Are those games available somewhere?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

15% cards on a single unit kinda suck, even tho it is just -1 attack in colonial. Normally it is 15% for 2 units and 20% for one. India is an excpetion (30% for camels) and Russia is another one with boyars (15% for 3 units). If we were remaking the game from scratch those things would be a no brainer to change.

Pavillon nerf makes sense because those techs stack over final stats. Also it is age3 so it doesn't nerf Japs vs rushes.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by gibson »

ovi12 wrote:
gibson wrote:Yea no game that Ryan plays means anything, cause he's so much better than everyone else he can make bad things look good..... Shit he had half the community convinced that age 2 Spain was good cause he was beating a bunch of pr 30s and rusty good players with it but when he actually played like prince and sommpu he lost as much as he won....

Are those games available somewhere?
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by lordraphael »

Garja wrote:15% cards on a single unit kinda suck, even tho it is just -1 attack in colonial. Normally it is 15% for 2 units and 20% for one. India is an excpetion (30% for camels) and Russia is another one with boyars (15% for 3 units). If we were remaking the game from scratch those things would be a no brainer to change.

Pavillon nerf makes sense because those techs stack over final stats. Also it is age3 so it doesn't nerf Japs vs rushes.

thats some nice garja logic right here. You say 15 % for an upgrade card sucks if it applies to 1 unit only however japan just has another upgrade card with only 15 % attack for just 1 unit and its even available in the same age. That card is for ashi attack and to say it sucks would be idiotic. Furthermore no other unit gets 20 % attack for 1 card except gren card for brits. If anything nerfing yumi attack is bringing an exception in line and not the other way around.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by DaRkNiTe1698 »

lordraphael wrote:
n0eL wrote:The point with Japan is all the opponent has to do is feign pressure and it forces you to wall and not shrine. If they have any way to boom behind that you are most likely fucked if they have any clue.

what i find funny is people used to defend with japan without laming walls and they were just fine with it . And when i watch h2os stream i dont see any walls and he still wins. No civ need walls to win games. Walls in this game are stupid and unnecessary, they decrease the skill cap while adding nothing in return. Its just a feature that allows lower players to win games they arent supposed to win.
If i watch old replays i dont see any walls just because they didnt need them to be good. its so sad.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Dsy »

How funny that people say "how you could defend with this poor civ vs rush" when its one of the strongest civ in age 2.

Everyone knows its OP btw. Everyone knows wall is lama cause its cost nothing. But people like to abuse these things for their own benefit so these conents arent even exists... :D
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

lordraphael wrote:thats some nice garja logic right here. You say 15 % for an upgrade card sucks if it applies to 1 unit only however japan just has another upgrade card with only 15 % attack for just 1 unit and its even available in the same age. That card is for ashi attack and to say it sucks would be idiotic. Furthermore no other unit gets 20 % attack for 1 card except gren card for brits. If anything nerfing yumi attack is bringing an exception in line and not the other way around.

Ashi attack card is another expecption (apparently has never been nerfed from 20%) and yes it sucks in itself.
Samurai get 20%. Grens get more than just 20%. Not many other cards only affect one unit. All jap cards affect exactly one (in a fortress age too) unit that's why they're stronger, that's my point.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:15% cards on a single unit kinda suck, even tho it is just -1 attack in colonial. Normally it is 15% for 2 units and 20% for one. India is an excpetion (30% for camels) and Russia is another one with boyars (15% for 3 units). If we were remaking the game from scratch those things would be a no brainer to change.

Pavillon nerf makes sense because those techs stack over final stats. Also it is age3 so it doesn't nerf Japs vs rushes.

Come on, 15% upgrade is just the regular stuff. It usually affects only one relevant unit. Brit musks get 15%, and no one says it sucks lol, it's just normal. It's actually even good because at least you got an upgrade, compared to some civs which don't. And yeah it affects grens, but who cares. Same for ger and fre, they get 15% upgrades for cav. So yeah it does affect ww and cuirs as well but that's only in fortress, if you stay colo it just works on huss/uhlan and no one complains that it's bad. Same for dops (if you train dops you won't train pikes so it virtually affects only dops), etc.
Actually when it affects several units it's sometimes only 10%, like for iro and china iirc. Upgrades giving 20% in colonial are just better than average.

Pretty sure yumi upgrade comes late enough to be after the rush, it's not gonna nerf japan's early game but rather mid game, I think it's fine.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Garja »

10% should be for 3 units. More than that it is 8% (china) or 5% ( india team card).
Anyway I'm just pointing out how the upgrade values normally work and the exceptions. Then the interpretation can be subjective.
15% on yumi card is "just" -1 attack in practical terms.
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by Kaiserklein »

Well idk, to me for one thing you just can't count that way because "1 unit" doesn't mean anything, some are much more relevant than some others. Yumis shouldn't have 20% boost imo because they're japan's main unit in a lot of games. It would be like giving germany a colonial +20% attack for uhlans or sth. As I said, upgrades affecting pikes, or grens, or halbs are not very relevant, so in the end you can't really count that way. Or then we need to give brit +20% for musks, because grens don't matter, but it would be too strong right ?

For another, I don't think there is much logic in those upgrades anyway. It was done randomly. Just look at some of them : german team cav attack works for all cav while french one works only for melee cav, so the german one is basically twice better lol. Is this logical ? Dutch colonial team infantry hp works for all infantry, while brit one works only for musks and grens. And it goes on and on, you can compare different cav combat cards, you'll see spain cav combat works only for huss and lancers while otto cav combat works for CA and huss but also all other cav (mams, spahis, stradiots, manchus), or that boyars give a fucking 15% hp and attack for 3 units while other colonial upgrades usually give 15% hp OR attack for less units than that...
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Japanese Discussion Thread

Post by lordraphael »

Garja wrote:10% should be for 3 units. More than that it is 8% (china) or 5% ( india team card).
Anyway I'm just pointing out how the upgrade values normally work and the exceptions. Then the interpretation can be subjective.
15% on yumi card is "just" -1 attack in practical terms.

to me their is barely any coherent design. Is seems random particularly if you compare the different expansion civs and then differentiate between nilla cards and epxansion pack cards. The design of nilla was coherent but after that it was a mess and you cant really see the pattern in it. At least I cant but hey the great garja ofc can.
breeze wrote: they cant even guess how much f***ing piece of stupid retarded they look they are trying to give lesson to people who are over pr35 and know the best mu. im pretty sure that we need a page that only pr30+ post and then we could have a nice discussins.

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