Goodspeed wrote:Do you have to play a mirror? That wouldn't tell us anything about balance. How about play the same MU twice and switch it around.
If anything then this. Better would be a show match between two equal players of several key India MUs on different maps, im worse than jerom overall so the result doesn't really say anything about balance because I could lose easily just due to worse mechanics.
Jerom wrote:It'd be irrelevant either way lol, not worth the time.
Ive been convinced the first thing Id test with india is non-agra wonders -10 seconds build time. Then Id test 700w 700g and then Id do the zamb thingy.
The easiest way to buff wonder time is just fixed start 400w, not some fancy wonder-specific fix that's overly complicated. Karni build can age at 4:20ish with 400w start vs 4:35ish without, isn't that the desired effect anyways?
The other wonders just aren't useful aging to colonial so no need to change them unnecessarily.
Jerom wrote:You cant just do fixed crates man, Ive explained that already. Its really nasty if you do.
The only explanation you said was that it's "ugly," and now "nasty." Kinda lacking substance there. If you have an actual explanation I'm willing to listen.
Jerom wrote:You cant just do fixed crates man, Ive explained that already. Its really nasty if you do.
Just to play devil's advocate, what would be so nasty about it? I think that if you had fixed 400w it would be pretty balanced IMO. Of course, people could just 10/10 every game, but even then, the 10/10 rush doesnt seem too strong on EP.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
Jerom wrote:that you get +100 res sometimes over the opponent. You basically create bigger inconsistencies.
When India (+some other civs too btw) gets coin start they just start with 100 less resources than their opponent for the first few mins of the game. These inconsistencies already exist, just in the reverse.
I think that a guaranteed 400w start might just be too good. I was messing around with India a bit, earlier today, and 400w TP starts seemed extremely good. Doing them with a forward agra can age at nearly the same time as the standard build, due to the fact that you can have all your vills to food like 30 seconds earlier. Your first 3 (nearly 4) colonial shipments are consecutive and the early mass you can get out is rather astounding, and you are aging with 25 vills worth of eco (trickle+tp+18-19 vills)
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
Jerom wrote:that you get +100 res sometimes over the opponent. You basically create bigger inconsistencies.
When India (+some other civs too btw) gets coin start they just start with 100 less resources than their opponent for the first few mins of the game. These inconsistencies already exist, just in the reverse.
What do you mean by this? You know both civs get the same crate starts, right? A fixed 400w start would allow India to start TP every game whereas other civs will be hoping for the wood crate. The difference between a non-wood start against India versus a wood-start against India would be quite large. The same is true for China currently. This is why ideally you would either have no fixed starts or all fixed starts.
Jerom wrote:that you get +100 res sometimes over the opponent. You basically create bigger inconsistencies.
When India (+some other civs too btw) gets coin start they just start with 100 less resources than their opponent for the first few mins of the game. These inconsistencies already exist, just in the reverse.
What do you mean by this? You know both civs get the same crate starts, right? A fixed 400w start would allow India to start TP every game whereas other civs will be hoping for the wood crate. The difference between a non-wood start against India versus a wood-start against India would be quite large. The same is true for China currently. This is why ideally you would either have no fixed starts or all fixed starts.
Getting early TP and aging on time seems to me to be pretty treasure dependent, I could just suck at macro tho. That said, maybe the solution would be extra food crate fixed start then?
What I mean is that India can't start market, so on a coin start they might as well not even have that crate until 3:40ish at the bare minimum, by which time 100 res is worth less. (Not uniquely an india problem).I'd argue it's worse for India because of gathering speeds of wood vs food, China for example also leaves the coin crate but since their vills cost food they lose fewer villager seconds making up for the coin crate deficit.
Now imagine just having that 100c removed from your fucking start and thats what you're proposing to india really. I think you have to do fixed crate starts or decide to not give a variable 2nd crate (or always). Fixed crates but then civs having either 1 or 2 random crates is just ugly.
Jerom wrote:that you get +100 res sometimes over the opponent. You basically create bigger inconsistencies.
When India (+some other civs too btw) gets coin start they just start with 100 less resources than their opponent for the first few mins of the game. These inconsistencies already exist, just in the reverse.
What do you mean by this? You know both civs get the same crate starts, right? A fixed 400w start would allow India to start TP every game whereas other civs will be hoping for the wood crate. The difference between a non-wood start against India versus a wood-start against India would be quite large. The same is true for China currently. This is why ideally you would either have no fixed starts or all fixed starts.
Getting early TP and aging on time seems to me to be pretty treasure dependent, I could just suck at macro tho. That said, maybe the solution would be extra food crate fixed start then?
Same problem but the other way around. That way if it's a wood start the other civ gets a TP and India doesn't. You're always going to have this issue when one of the civs has fixed crates and the other random. It's a very ugly solution indeed, and imo the fact that they felt it was necessary for China shows that the random crates themselves are a design flaw.
Jerom wrote:that you get +100 res sometimes over the opponent. You basically create bigger inconsistencies.
When India (+some other civs too btw) gets coin start they just start with 100 less resources than their opponent for the first few mins of the game. These inconsistencies already exist, just in the reverse.
What do you mean by this? You know both civs get the same crate starts, right? A fixed 400w start would allow India to start TP every game whereas other civs will be hoping for the wood crate. The difference between a non-wood start against India versus a wood-start against India would be quite large. The same is true for China currently. This is why ideally you would either have no fixed starts or all fixed starts.
Getting early TP and aging on time seems to me to be pretty treasure dependent, I could just suck at macro tho. That said, maybe the solution would be extra food crate fixed start then?
Same problem but the other way around. That way if it's a wood start the other civ gets a TP and India doesn't. You're always going to have this issue when one of the civs has fixed crates and the other random. It's a very ugly solution indeed, and imo the fact that they felt it was necessary for China shows that the random crates themselves are a design flaw.
I definitely agree with crates being a design flaw. I suppose if the patch team doesn't decide to commit to fixed starts overall then this is probably not going to work out, at least in theory. In practice, I think even 400w start fixed really wouldn't be much of an issue, but that should be up to the testers if they decide to try this approach. IMO there is too much variability in India's age time based on starts when compared to other civs to just write this idea (or similar ones) off. Same kinda goes for Japan too? They're both ranked fairly low in the recent EP poll.
Jerom wrote:that you get +100 res sometimes over the opponent. You basically create bigger inconsistencies.
When India (+some other civs too btw) gets coin start they just start with 100 less resources than their opponent for the first few mins of the game. These inconsistencies already exist, just in the reverse.
What do you mean by this? You know both civs get the same crate starts, right? A fixed 400w start would allow India to start TP every game whereas other civs will be hoping for the wood crate. The difference between a non-wood start against India versus a wood-start against India would be quite large. The same is true for China currently. This is why ideally you would either have no fixed starts or all fixed starts.
Getting early TP and aging on time seems to me to be pretty treasure dependent, I could just suck at macro tho. That said, maybe the solution would be extra food crate fixed start then?
Same problem but the other way around. That way if it's a wood start the other civ gets a TP and India doesn't. You're always going to have this issue when one of the civs has fixed crates and the other random. It's a very ugly solution indeed, and imo the fact that they felt it was necessary for China shows that the random crates themselves are a design flaw.
china is actually missing one crate compared to other asian civs. they dont have the random crate, which might be a mistake, and therefore it seems china has fixed crates while actually they just miss one. Both japan and india have 5 crates + 1 random, while china has just 5 crates no random.
Which is the definition of fixed but yeah I know what you mean. The worst start for China is if the other civ gets a random wood crate plus the extra food crate, e.g. German 300f 200w. The difference between that and 200f 100w 100c is game-deciding, and China gets 200f 300w either way.
So wait, do you actually have 2 random crates as European civs?
Darwin_ wrote:I think that's more a problem with France than with India. CDB RR essentially makes it impossible for India to rush them and be in the least bit effective, and also goons are very good on RE.
I think you overestimate the power of both CDBs and goons. The former can't tank forever and sepoys have a really high base damage regardless, plus being idled in the TC is also painful for the French player. The latter, however, can't just get killed by age 2 gurkha, but of course in addition to skirms and falconets they become quite scary, but I wouldn't say it's the biggest threat for India.
sirmusket wrote:
Jerom wrote:I dont want lag, could you maybe not cast it instead?
lol, If I'm at my other house my internet is completely fine, even forgrin knows that, im always full green wit him, you just trying to avoid the embarrassment on stream of getting whooped by the mighty forgrin
Yeah, your connection isn't that well sometimes, I recall you having a yellow-green ping at times.
pecelot wrote:So wait, do you actually have 2 random crates as European civs?
Darwin_ wrote:I think that's more a problem with France than with India. CDB RR essentially makes it impossible for India to rush them and be in the least bit effective, and also goons are very good on RE.
I think you overestimate the power of both CDBs and goons. The former can't tank forever and sepoys have a really high base damage regardless, plus being idled in the TC is also painful for the French player. The latter, however, can't just get killed by age 2 gurkha, but of course in addition to skirms and falconets they become quite scary, but I wouldn't say it's the biggest threat for India.
An un-upgraded villager takes 5 shots from a Sepoy to die, with great coat they take 7. Unupgraded Cdb's take 11 shots, and 14 with great coat. That is a huge difference. A standard civ would have to pull in 20 villagers into a fight just to be equal to 10 french cdb's.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
It's for sure 6 shots to take out a normal vil, I've used sepoy too often not to know that. I think its 12 for a cdb aswell. I don't know the other numbers but it's not 7 and 14.
Darwin_ wrote:An un-upgraded villager takes 5 shots from a Sepoy to die, with great coat they take 7. Unupgraded Cdb's take 11 shots, and 14 with great coat. That is a huge difference. A standard civ would have to pull in 20 villagers into a fight just to be equal to 10 french cdb's.
Sure, but it doesn't straight up in you the game, you still get idled a ton and your CDBs don't get healed. Of course it helps, other than that.
Darwin_ wrote:An un-upgraded villager takes 5 shots from a Sepoy to die, with great coat they take 7. Unupgraded Cdb's take 11 shots, and 14 with great coat. That is a huge difference. A standard civ would have to pull in 20 villagers into a fight just to be equal to 10 french cdb's.
Sure, but it doesn't straight up in you the game, you still get idled a ton and your CDBs don't get healed. Of course it helps, other than that.
Minutemen, tc fire and your 16-20 cdbs can kill all 12 of their sepoys with good micro. Thats just crazy IMO compared to normal villagers.
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
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