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Bavaria Gichtenlord
Howdah
Donator 02
Posts: 1130

23 Dec 2016, 23:11

The tournament is finally over, and the win will be awarded to EL_CHAPO and OliverP. To eliminate any confusion regarding the delayed announcement, this is what happened:

The first game was played, and EL_CHAPO and OliverP won. The second game was started, and, three minutes in, AJIV and ramex19 resigned because of lag from EL_CHAPO. The cause of the lag was unknown and beyond EL_CHAPO's control. After that, EL_CHAPO tried some basic fixes (restart computer, restart router etc) but nothing seemed to be working. He had some more fixes to try but eventually AJIV and ramex19 logged off.

Because of the unideal circumstances that lead to the win, there was confusion among the admin team regarding how to handle it. There's no solution that can satisfy everyone. However, what it comes down to is this:
1. We don't have any rules regarding player lag and how to handle it. If AJIV and ramex19 had basis in the rules for quitting the second game, it would be a different story, but there's nothing in the rules giving them the right to resign if there is lag.
2. "1.10 - If necessary, each team is allowed one restart per game BEFORE the 2 minute mark." Each team is allowed one restart, but the restart called by AJIV and ramex19 was well after the two minute mark, at 3:29. Going by the rules, the second game went too long to be considered a restart, and must be considered a win for EL_CHAPO and OlverP.
3. We could also force them to play their game again, however, that would drag out the tournament even longer, and we are already two months past our deadline.

The next tournament will have more coherant rules regarding lag and stricter deadlines. However, in the case of this tournament, the rules we set clearly show that EL_CHAPO and OliverP are the winners.
r]
Great Britain Hazza54321
Jaeger
Posts: 3505

23 Dec 2016, 23:23

shit gamemode anyway, only high iq players can play it
Venividivici_w: i heard h20 signed up last minute. Prob waited for roby not signing up so he wouldnt get smashed again

Well, Im the best thing that happened to aoe3 - vane stoilov 2k17
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New Zealand ocemilky
Skirmisher
Posts: 150
ESO: Milky__

24 Dec 2016, 01:04

Only realistic way to handle the situation. You said that they resigned due to lag from EL CHAPO. Is this just a statement from players or has it been confirmed EL CHAPO was the larger?
sergyou wrote:i won't even bother reply to ur posts anymore and id like u to the same and not quote me


howlingwolfpaw wrote:cognitive dissonance is what people suffer from when refusing to look at 9/11 truth.
Netherlands Veni_Vidi_Vici_W
Lancer
Posts: 535
ESO: Veni_Vidi_Vici_W

27 Dec 2016, 19:27

@Gichtenlord too bad you didnt inform or tag us directly, didnt even know about this ... ^^
@ocemilky See below, as often in this world, things are stated under false pretences.

As I have mentioned before its always nice to have tournaments, and admins putting effort into organizing this.

That said, I find your description and the decision very flawed and not understandable. Below is my explanation with additional proof (which was shared with other admins before) of the ridiculous situation we were in AND how long we tried to GET a game going despite the issues. Not to mention how much effort i had to put in to get these games scheduled, as none seemed to care much.

- Regardless of the missing of a 'lagg' rule, there is something called admin action and decisions, so please dont make it sound like this was the only option. If you expect us to play in such a bad lag environment, im simply stunned. Its was just not playable like that, which I have clearly stated to the other admins.
- The fact that you even bring up the 2 min thing is absurd. You were not even there or heard our version probably. We have played game 1, because we wanted to finish this. That was playable so we didnt raise any issues, but it was far from smooth. Then the second game during launch Sabusa had a bad ping again (see attachment 1), and it lagged badly. So, we said it was not playable after a little bit (luckily before the 2 min i guess), and Sabusa went on to try and fix stuff, SEVERAL times. After having it supposedly fixed, we tried, and still he couldnt get it to work properly. Then again a restart some other fix try or w.e, again issues. Then, I think, 3rd time, I decided to just record it locally precisely because I anticipated this kind of bs thing already (see this video: https://youtu.be/2QyXudZ8W98). As you can clearly see, it was lagging hard, and inconsistent, and this was not even 40 min with 400 pop. As you can also see, we DID try to give it time, as we hoped it would fix, so we DID give them the benefit of the doubt... for a while. Then you see it freezes bad again and we just went out as this was unplayable.
So should we have not tried to get this game working, because the game now ran over 2 min.....is that what you are saying?
- This all took so long, and after multiple times of them trying to fix it and obviously not being fixed, ajiv went off cause it wasnt going to work and it was getting late. We never resigned. We did try, also via admin, to get this played a few days later hoping they would NOT have lagg issues again. I have even suggested to play an (extra) showmatch vs 2 admins or so just to get games for the TR community out there. But now i understand why our opponents might have dodged again...
- Being up 1-0 doesnt mean a thing btw, look at our semi finals or other tournaments.

So basically, lagg hard and/or play in an unreliable environment, irritate the others as much as possible dont even fix your shit or try to play another time, and get away with a win because of that? I dont master these skills....yet.

I just dont understand this ? Please eleborate...
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Germany queenofdestiny
Lancer
Posts: 716
ESO: QueenOfdestiny

31 Dec 2016, 02:41

I was thinking about to say something about this sad end of the tournament.
First i want to say that i dont want to upset someone its just my personal thinking about this...

Look the delay from the games to play them was really a long time and it was not from Ajiv and Veni side.
Then they played an it was a horrible lag.
How we see on the screenshot from veni, that El_CHAPO have a red ping bar.

so all i want to say is:
It´s not fair that EL_CHAPO and OliverP got the win.
The win should be spliting to all of them or they should play again whitout lag .
I like all of them 4 but its just from a neutral side not fair.
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United States of America SirCallen
Jaeger
Donator 01
Posts: 3600
ESO: SirCallen
Location: Midwest

31 Dec 2016, 05:00

Alright congrats winners! Lul
sircal1Flowers = :flowers:

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No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Howdah
Posts: 1811

31 Dec 2016, 05:44

well dang, I thought it was just a scheduling issue. this is most unfortunate.
I guess from now on people should learn to just play in bad lag and hope the guy drops out for the win.

how did the bronze match go?
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United States of America SirCallen
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Posts: 3600
ESO: SirCallen
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31 Dec 2016, 05:51

howlingwolfpaw wrote:
how did the bronze match go?


SirCallen and kyle_the_great08 aka @SenorCallen won third place via admin decision as they were unfairly beat out by a team whose combined ELO was greater than the specified requirements.
sircal1Flowers = :flowers:

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No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Howdah
Posts: 1811

31 Dec 2016, 06:09

how did that happen? were they playing with that PR the whole time? did they get a pass from the judges to play, if so why then was that changed?
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United States of America dicktator_
Lancer
Posts: 657

31 Dec 2016, 20:09

I didn't want to get involved but I'll respond anyway because of the attention this is getting.
@others The first game was probably a little laggy but even Veni said in his post it was playable. The lag didn't start until the second game.

Veni_Vidi_Vici_W wrote:@Gichtenlord too bad you didnt inform or tag us directly, didnt even know about this ... ^^
@ocemilky See below, as often in this world, things are stated under false pretences.

As I have mentioned before its always nice to have tournaments, and admins putting effort into organizing this.

That said, I find your description and the decision very flawed and not understandable. Below is my explanation with additional proof (which was shared with other admins before) of the ridiculous situation we were in AND how long we tried to GET a game going despite the issues. Not to mention how much effort i had to put in to get these games scheduled, as none seemed to care much.

- Regardless of the missing of a 'lagg' rule, there is something called admin action and decisions, so please dont make it sound like this was the only option. If you expect us to play in such a bad lag environment, im simply stunned. Its was just not playable like that, which I have clearly stated to the other admins.
- The fact that you even bring up the 2 min thing is absurd. You were not even there or heard our version probably. We have played game 1, because we wanted to finish this. That was playable so we didnt raise any issues, but it was far from smooth. Then the second game during launch Sabusa had a bad ping again (see attachment 1), and it lagged badly. So, we said it was not playable after a little bit (luckily before the 2 min i guess), and Sabusa went on to try and fix stuff, SEVERAL times. After having it supposedly fixed, we tried, and still he couldnt get it to work properly. Then again a restart some other fix try or w.e, again issues. Then, I think, 3rd time, I decided to just record it locally precisely because I anticipated this kind of bs thing already (see this video: https://youtu.be/2QyXudZ8W98). As you can clearly see, it was lagging hard, and inconsistent, and this was not even 40 min with 400 pop. As you can also see, we DID try to give it time, as we hoped it would fix, so we DID give them the benefit of the doubt... for a while. Then you see it freezes bad again and we just went out as this was unplayable.
So should we have not tried to get this game working, because the game now ran over 2 min.....is that what you are saying?
- This all took so long, and after multiple times of them trying to fix it and obviously not being fixed, ajiv went off cause it wasnt going to work and it was getting late. We never resigned. We did try, also via admin, to get this played a few days later hoping they would NOT have lagg issues again. I have even suggested to play an (extra) showmatch vs 2 admins or so just to get games for the TR community out there. But now i understand why our opponents might have dodged again...
- Being up 1-0 doesnt mean a thing btw, look at our semi finals or other tournaments.

So basically, lagg hard and/or play in an unreliable environment, irritate the others as much as possible dont even fix your shit or try to play another time, and get away with a win because of that? I dont master these skills....yet.

I just dont understand this ? Please eleborate...

Everyone put effort into scheduling games. Most of the time, it was bad luck of people's schedules not coinciding combined with lack of admin decisions to get matches settled that caused the tourney to run this long. We're still kind of amateurs at running tournaments but we're learning. I have to stand by this decision, though.

Making decisions on the fly with no basis in rules was one of the biggest criticisms we received (the temutu/christian disqualification) so this time we thought it'd be better to stick with the rules we put forth. You shouldn't have to play in such bad lag, but as it became clear the rematch wasn't going to happen in the next few days due to schedules, and we didn't want to extend the tournament even longer (it likely would have lasted into 2017), we had to make the difficult decision of how to go about ending it.

The strict interpretation of the 2 min rule might not matter as much due to the circumstances surrounding it. The point is, sabusa and oliver were restarting on your and AJIV's behest, and you guys were the ones who walked away.

"it wasn't going to work", how can you say that for sure? Sabusa was still attempting fixes when you guys walked away. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you guys gave him about 30 mins to try fixes. You say it was getting late, but you guys were prepared to play one or two more treaty games, which can last up to 90+ mins. So you had ~3 hours free (we can round down to 2 hours 30 mins since the game didn't start at exactly 18 GMT), and you left after 30 mins. If you guys had waited that long, played and won the second game, but not been able to play the third due to time, that would've been understandable. A big part of our decision was that you guys walked away while he was still trying fixes.

They didn't dodge you, they just couldn't make time to play rematches because they were both traveling for the holidays.

Being up 1-0 doesn't mean nothing in the context of the situation. Not all games were able to be played, rematches can't be played anytime soon, and we have to make an admin decision to end the tournament. Of course being up 1-0 is going to mean something here.

In that last paragraph, you make it sound like sabusa was intentionally dragging his feet in getting his ping fixed or getting the rematch played, when it's not the case. Sabusa was making every effort to fix the lag, and was still in the process of doing so when you guys called it quits. The rematch couldn't be played, not because of a dodge, but once again because schedules didn't coincide. Instead of giving endless extensions as we have in the past, we decided to learn from our mistakes, and take action.
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No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Howdah
Posts: 1811

31 Dec 2016, 21:21

after viewing your 3 min start of game I do think you resigned pretty fast. There was at most a .5 or less delay in unit action, sometimes seemingly pretty smooth. but as soon as that one stall happened that could have been from someone checking a deck immediately resigned. Perhaps everyone should have put graphics on low and closed all other programs. Or confered with casters as to what to do.
Netherlands Veni_Vidi_Vici_W
Lancer
Posts: 535
ESO: Veni_Vidi_Vici_W

02 Jan 2017, 15:40

@howlingwolfpaw not sure if you saw the whole video, but there were several freezes. We did give it the benefit of the doubt and continued, knowing that we might extend the 2 min but just because we wanted to play and finish this. If you look carefully right before the end there was again a major freeze, then we decided this is way too laggy. Too unreliable and imagine how it would be at min 40 with 400 pop.

@dicktator_
The first game was probably a little laggy but even Veni said in his post it was playable. The lag didn't start until the second game.

That is a contradiction. The first game did lagg, though it was playable, so we decided to let it go. Playable doesnt mean it was fine, as I stated before.

I realize it would not be an easy decision, whatever was chosen. But thats why there are admins, to judge the exceptional situations where rules dont cover it.
The point is, sabusa and oliver were restarting on your and AJIV's behest, and you guys were the ones who walked away.

On our behest? We clearly explained and proved that they were lagging really badly. We also showed we WANTED to get this game going, see the video. We have given them idk how many tries (and more than the 30 min mentioned), every time it was supposedly fixed....We didnt trust it anymore after the initial claims of it 'being fixed". At some point i was kinda done with that so i recorded it. Otherwise we could have been going for idk how long and then find out that at min 40 there would be huge lagg, then what?
They have to get their stuff in order or not play at all in a tournament. They CONFIRMED for sunday, so they knew we would play it then ??????

In that last paragraph, you make it sound like sabusa was intentionally dragging his feet in getting his ping fixed or getting the rematch played, when it's not the case. Sabusa was making every effort to fix the lag, and was still in the process of doing so when you guys called it quits. The rematch couldn't be played, not because of a dodge, but once again because schedules didn't coincide. Instead of giving endless extensions as we have in the past, we decided to learn from our mistakes, and take action.

Its not my responsibility to get my opponents gear in a playable setting, its theirs. They tried to fix several times, but it didnt work, clearly something was wrong (perhaps that evening idk).
As for "scheduling didnt coincide", well, that was more on their part than ours, given our extensive availability.

We didnt just walk away, as ive mentioned several times now. We even talked to admins, and you, but you didnt respond at first on skype. There was communication with niceking and charlemagen. So i suggest admins should be more on the same page then before telling us one thing and later hearing the opposite. They even said they were fine with a split of the prize if the other team couldnt get their stuff fixed. I then said lets give them one last try (the one i recorded...) or can we otherwise get it played in the following days or even play a showmatch vs you two, or any 2, just for the TR community to get some games. And now this is our reward, very nice.

Given all the above, and idk what you and the other admins have discussed, but this course of action just looks unfair and biased.
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No Flag howlingwolfpaw
Howdah
Posts: 1811

02 Jan 2017, 16:31

I did see the freezes, I guess several games had been started with the same results. Bad lag would be a huge influence to one team or the other in determining outcome. I am sorry I do think this is pretty unfair way to win the tourney.

What would you like to see done now?

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