[TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

User avatar
United States of America dicktator_
Howdah
EWT
Posts: 1565
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
ESO: Conquerer999

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by dicktator_ »

My new list (China hasn't had much testing BTW, same with Iro), from strongest to weakest, in nats or out of nats I don't think it matters too much at this point

Sioux
Brits
China
Ports
Japan (below Germany and France in nats)
Germany
France (France can do decent against Brits tho)
Russia (Might be above Germany, France, and even Japan, but I'm not sure yet)
Dutch
Iro (probs above Dutch in nats)
Spain
India
Aztec
Otto (moves up above Aztec and around India level in nats)

As China and Iro haven't had much testing and the community (except for @supernapoleon) is realizing a better way to play Russia, this list is not final. Also my opinion changes every time I lose a game.
steniothejonjoe wrote:I can micro better than 99% of the player base and that's 100% objective
:mds:
User avatar
Germany QueenOfdestiny
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2139
Joined: Aug 9, 2016
ESO: QueenOfdestiny

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by QueenOfdestiny »

Dosent ports beat Brits?
shit juice :hmm:
No Flag charlemagen
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 478
Joined: Aug 28, 2015
ESO: Charlemagen
Location: California

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by charlemagen »

queenofdestiny wrote:Dosent ports beat Brits?

Only if brit is not playing very well, and ports wall/ culv micro well.
User avatar
United States of America dicktator_
Howdah
EWT
Posts: 1565
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
ESO: Conquerer999

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by dicktator_ »

queenofdestiny wrote:Dosent ports beat Brits?

On RE ports win because of explorers, Brits win the long game on the patch.
steniothejonjoe wrote:I can micro better than 99% of the player base and that's 100% objective
:mds:
Germany supernapoleon
Lancer
Posts: 655
Joined: Sep 9, 2015
ESO: Supernapoleon
Location: Munich

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by supernapoleon »

At least you finally relized the strength of russia @dicktator_
"I'M SOOOOOO GOOD AT THE GAME"
Hazza wrote: "I mad u win cos u get carried all game and have to lame every game"
Image
User avatar
Bavaria Gichtenlord
Howdah
Donator 03
Posts: 1437
Joined: Nov 15, 2015

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by Gichtenlord »

"Strength of russia", based on nicks tier list they would be average and thats only because other civs are just totally awful.
r]
User avatar
Switzerland sebnan12
Jaeger
Posts: 2311
Joined: Nov 15, 2015
ESO: Mongobillione
Location: Switzerland

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by sebnan12 »

its hard to do a list when some civs beat some and lose to some.. i like martins stuff with tiers
"Why are you trying to lecture me on my own language, no wonder you people shit in the open street."- Riotcoke

''man he's slow rolling him more than a fish on a royal flush'' - Garja

NEED MORE XP
User avatar
United States of America dicktator_
Howdah
EWT
Posts: 1565
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
ESO: Conquerer999

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

  • Quote

Post by dicktator_ »

Reasons why Sioux are the most OP civ on the Treaty Patch
Everyone knows that Sioux are far and away the most OP civ on the Treaty Patch at the moment. The purpose of this post is to explain why, and to emphasize points that need nerfing.

1. The Teepee buff: The number of teepees Sioux can make was reduced to 10, however, their stats and effects were doubled. The big thing about this is that it takes two mortar shots to kill a teepee now. Sounds like a fair trade right? Why is this a big deal? Well, the amount of time it takes to build a teepee remained the same. Consider a hypothetical in which you have four mortars VS Sioux. On RE, you would destroy four teepees in a single volley. Assuming the Sioux player uses an average of four (this is an arbitrary number btw) wakina to rebuild a single teepee, the Sioux player must use 16 wakinas to rebuild the teepees lost in that volley. On TP, the four mortars only kill two teepees in a single volley. While the temporary loss in unit stats is the same as on RE, the Sioux player only has to use eight wakinas to rebuild the teepees lost in that volley. The difference of 8 wakinas building for half a second instead of fighting doesn't sound like much. However, you must realize that this hypothetical only takes one mortar volley into account, while an average game against Sioux contains hundreds of mortar volleys. Basically, the Sioux player has to work half as hard, with half as many wakina, to rebuild teepees on the treaty patch.

2. The Bison TC spawn: The theory behind this was good. However, the execution was horrible, because those of us in the treaty patch team didn't fully think through the change. Right now, each TC will spawn two bison every two minutes and 30 seconds. There is a tech in the imperial age reducing this to one minute and 30 seconds. Considering that in an average game, with a good boom, a Sioux player will be imp and fully teched out by 18 mins, let's see how many bison a Sioux player can spawn in the remaining 22 minutes. 3 TC producing two bison every 1.5 minutes = 6 Bison every 1.5 minutes. 22/1.5 = ~14.5, 14.5 X 6 = 87 bison. That's 43,500 food from bison, plus 10k from ageup bison = 53.5k food. Obviously these calculations don't take decay into account, but they also don't take hunts on the map or bison spawned in the first 18 minutes into account. Sioux can get so much food from bison, in the boom alone, that when I played Sioux I even opted to not send the age 1 mill card before 40, in favor of an additional hunting card. After doing this math, rumors of a 2050-2100 Sioux boom from floko don't sound so far fetched to me anymore.

How to nerf: I would recommend reverting Teepee stats to how they were on RE, while slicing the bison spawn in half (one bison every two minutes), and cutting down ageup bison even more (it used to be 30, it's 20 now, I would go down to 10 or maybe even get rid of it and just leave the gathering upgrade).

Also, revert China consulate armies and export trickle.
steniothejonjoe wrote:I can micro better than 99% of the player base and that's 100% objective
:mds:
User avatar
Canada _NiceKING_
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 1795
Joined: Sep 16, 2015
ESO: _NiceKING_
GameRanger ID: 9999999
Clan: Xbox

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by _NiceKING_ »

dicktator_ wrote:Right now, each TC will spawn two bison every two minutes and 30 seconds. There is a tech in the imperial age reducing this to two minutes.

The tech speeds up the bison production by 1 minute, so it actually reduces it to 1 min 30sec
User avatar
United States of America dicktator_
Howdah
EWT
Posts: 1565
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
ESO: Conquerer999

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by dicktator_ »

_NiceKING_ wrote:
dicktator_ wrote:Right now, each TC will spawn two bison every two minutes and 30 seconds. There is a tech in the imperial age reducing this to two minutes.

The tech speeds up the bison production by 1 minute, so it actually reduces it to 1 min 30sec

That's even worse :D
steniothejonjoe wrote:I can micro better than 99% of the player base and that's 100% objective
:mds:
User avatar
Bavaria Gichtenlord
Howdah
Donator 03
Posts: 1437
Joined: Nov 15, 2015

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by Gichtenlord »

dicktator_ wrote:
2. The Bison TC spawn: The theory behind this was good. However, the execution was horrible, because those of us in the treaty patch team didn't fully think through the change. Right now, each TC will spawn two bison every two minutes and 30 seconds. There is a tech in the imperial age reducing this to two minutes. Considering that in an average game, with a good boom, a Sioux player will be imp and fully teched out by 18 mins, let's see how many bison a Sioux player can spawn in the remaining 22 minutes. 3 TC producing two bison every two minutes = 6 Bison every two minutes. 22/2 = 11, 11 X 6 = 66 bison. That's 33,000 food from bison, plus 10k from ageup bison = 43k food. Obviously these calculations don't take decay into account, but they also don't take hunts on the map or bison spawned in the first 18 minutes into account. Sioux can get so much food from bison, in the boom alone, that when I played Sioux I even opted to not send the age 1 mill card before 40, in favor of an additional hunting card. After doing this math, rumors of a 2050-2100 Sioux boom from floko don't sound so far fetched to me anymore.


The issue is not a better boom, but having infinite bison card + free bisons from tc. Actually, the idea for spawning bisons from tc was to replace the infinite 9 bison card in the first place, but for some reason that was never talked about again. Now, their food income is insanely high during the fight, which gives them the opportunity to put more vills on coin.
Obviously, the bison change paired with the tepee buff was too much and put sioux over the edge. I rather propose to just nerf the wc's hp (or was it already done in the last iteration?) and either remove bisons spawning from tc or infinite 9 bison card. Also, consider increasing building time points of tepees.
r]
User avatar
United States of America dicktator_
Howdah
EWT
Posts: 1565
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
ESO: Conquerer999

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by dicktator_ »

Gichtenlord wrote:
dicktator_ wrote:
2. The Bison TC spawn: The theory behind this was good. However, the execution was horrible, because those of us in the treaty patch team didn't fully think through the change. Right now, each TC will spawn two bison every two minutes and 30 seconds. There is a tech in the imperial age reducing this to two minutes. Considering that in an average game, with a good boom, a Sioux player will be imp and fully teched out by 18 mins, let's see how many bison a Sioux player can spawn in the remaining 22 minutes. 3 TC producing two bison every two minutes = 6 Bison every two minutes. 22/2 = 11, 11 X 6 = 66 bison. That's 33,000 food from bison, plus 10k from ageup bison = 43k food. Obviously these calculations don't take decay into account, but they also don't take hunts on the map or bison spawned in the first 18 minutes into account. Sioux can get so much food from bison, in the boom alone, that when I played Sioux I even opted to not send the age 1 mill card before 40, in favor of an additional hunting card. After doing this math, rumors of a 2050-2100 Sioux boom from floko don't sound so far fetched to me anymore.


The issue is not a better boom, but having infinite bison card + free bisons from tc. Actually, the idea for spawning bisons from tc was to replace the infinite 9 bison card in the first place, but for some reason that was never talked about again. Now, their food income is insanely high during the fight, which gives them the opportunity to put more vills on coin.
Obviously, the bison change paired with the tepee buff was too much and put sioux over the edge. I rather propose to just nerf the wc's hp (or was it already done in the last iteration?) and either remove bisons spawning from tc or infinite 9 bison card. Also, consider increasing building time points of tepees.

The infinite bison card was removed (the card still has a blue border, but it is not infinite), and the Sioux wc was nerfed back to 3k. Sioux are still too strong.
steniothejonjoe wrote:I can micro better than 99% of the player base and that's 100% objective
:mds:
User avatar
Canada _NiceKING_
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 1795
Joined: Sep 16, 2015
ESO: _NiceKING_
GameRanger ID: 9999999
Clan: Xbox

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by _NiceKING_ »

Gichtenlord wrote:I rather propose to just nerf the wc's hp (or was it already done in the last iteration?) and either remove bisons spawning from tc or infinite 9 bison card. Also, consider increasing building time points of tepees.

  • WC's hp was reverted to its original state
  • inf. 9 bisons card was removed
  • teepee build time was increased by 20% (~1sec)
User avatar
United States of America dicktator_
Howdah
EWT
Posts: 1565
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
ESO: Conquerer999

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by dicktator_ »

The smaller iterative nerfs won't balance Sioux because of how far ahead the buffs put them. We need to do something bigger, IMO, like what I suggested in my previous post.
steniothejonjoe wrote:I can micro better than 99% of the player base and that's 100% objective
:mds:
User avatar
Germany Lukas_L99
Pro Player
Donator 01
Posts: 2059
Joined: Nov 15, 2015
ESO: Lukas_L99
Location: Lübeck

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

  • Quote

Post by Lukas_L99 »

Oh and imo Strelet RR back to 30%, 40% is just bs tbh
Germany supernapoleon
Lancer
Posts: 655
Joined: Sep 9, 2015
ESO: Supernapoleon
Location: Munich

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by supernapoleon »

Lukas_L99 wrote:Oh and imo Strelet RR back to 30%, 40% is just bs tbh

Russia too gud
"I'M SOOOOOO GOOD AT THE GAME"
Hazza wrote: "I mad u win cos u get carried all game and have to lame every game"
Image
User avatar
Bavaria Gichtenlord
Howdah
Donator 03
Posts: 1437
Joined: Nov 15, 2015

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by Gichtenlord »

dicktator_ wrote:The smaller iterative nerfs won't balance Sioux because of how far ahead the buffs put them. We need to do something bigger, IMO, like what I suggested in my previous post.

Dont you think thats a bit too much? You guys already reverted most of the changes and, apparently, the only existing buff is 10 teepees, which is partly good and bad, imo. On one side, it is too easy for sioux to keep their teepee count up, on the other side, it gives sioux the ability to adapt easier on any map, since less space is required.
I would rather propose for either a longer buildingtime or change amount of teepes to 15.
r]
User avatar
United States of America dicktator_
Howdah
EWT
Posts: 1565
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
ESO: Conquerer999

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by dicktator_ »

Gichtenlord wrote:
dicktator_ wrote:The smaller iterative nerfs won't balance Sioux because of how far ahead the buffs put them. We need to do something bigger, IMO, like what I suggested in my previous post.

Dont you think thats a bit too much? You guys already reverted most of the changes and, apparently, the only existing buff is 10 teepees, which is partly good and bad, imo. On one side, it is too easy for sioux to keep their teepee count up, on the other side, it gives sioux the ability to adapt easier on any map, since less space is required.
I would rather propose for either a longer buildingtime or change amount of teepes to 15.

I guess I'm alright with considering alternatives to completely reverting teepees. I really think they get way too much food from the bison trickle though. For them to be drainable we need to nerf the bison TC spawn as well imo. The last round of changes while healthy just didn't do enough to Sioux.
steniothejonjoe wrote:I can micro better than 99% of the player base and that's 100% objective
:mds:
No Flag charlemagen
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 478
Joined: Aug 28, 2015
ESO: Charlemagen
Location: California

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by charlemagen »

Completely reverting teepee would ruin sioux. I have not played in a while but spamming 20 teepees and needing a ton of space to do so makes sioux not fun. I like gichts ideas
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by Hazza54321 »

Give strel 100% range resist
User avatar
China paddy_jai
Skirmisher
Posts: 106
Joined: Mar 10, 2016

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by paddy_jai »

delete souix
User avatar
China paddy_jai
Skirmisher
Posts: 106
Joined: Mar 10, 2016

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by paddy_jai »

nobody likes to play or play against it anyway
User avatar
New Zealand JakeyBoyTH
Howdah
Posts: 1744
Joined: Oct 15, 2016
ESO: Ex-Contributor
Location: New Zealand

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by JakeyBoyTH »

paddy_jai wrote:nobody likes to play or play against it anyway

@Acolyte
Advanced Wonders suck

- Aizamk

Ugh Advanced Wonders suck

- Aizamk
User avatar
United States of America dicktator_
Howdah
EWT
Posts: 1565
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
ESO: Conquerer999

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by dicktator_ »

Also, strelets on TP are too strong with 40% RR, they won't cost effectively lose any skirm war now, but Russia still has the same problems VS cav flanks or large amounts of cav in general (nookta help with this but they are expensive). I would recommend reverting the RR change then buffing Russia in some other area if needed (which it probably will be).
steniothejonjoe wrote:I can micro better than 99% of the player base and that's 100% objective
:mds:
User avatar
United States of America dicktator_
Howdah
EWT
Posts: 1565
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
ESO: Conquerer999

Re: [TR Patch] Strongest/weakest civs

Post by dicktator_ »

charlemagen wrote:Completely reverting teepee would ruin sioux. I have not played in a while but spamming 20 teepees and needing a ton of space to do so makes sioux not fun. I like gichts ideas

Yeah fair point. Less teepees is good for maps like Orinoco or blitztreaty cliff. I thought about it more and now I think of you increase the build time too much you run the risk of making teepees horrible (if you can cancel the foundations with mortars). So I think the best way to balance Sioux is another incremental hit to teepees (another +20%, totaling +40% on teepees) while hitting the bison trickle hard. I don't know why you @Gichtenlord don't think it's problematic for Sioux to have a large stockpile of res pre 40 and a decent (still very low compared to other Civs but much, much better than RE) income later. Sioux by design are not meant to have a strong boom. They're meant to be a low eco strong mili civ with a few special gimmicks (wc fire pit teepee etc) that can win games. They're not meant to have a stockpile of res at 40 that can rival euro civs. I'd also like to add that theorizing and actually putting theories into practice are two very different things, and I have a few games against floko Sioux that we both agree indicate Sioux is too strong right now (there is one on my YouTube channel, that game was played on the most recent patch), and if need be we can play more (this time I'll play some Sioux as well). As annoying as Sioux are I want every civ to be playable on the patch, and right now we have to ban Sioux because it is too strong :/, and I'll suffer through some more games vs current Sioux if that's what it takes to prove my point.
steniothejonjoe wrote:I can micro better than 99% of the player base and that's 100% objective
:mds:

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV