India vs. Germany (Treaty/Late FFA)

[Makinee]

How would you see this MU plays out?

I was playing FFA recently, being India against Germany who had over 30 minutes of boom time before fighting me.
In the end there was only me and him, and his initial attack kind of caught me off guard.
So he had this (never seen it before) annyoing habit of making a TC behind his FB, which was way too close to my eco.
Hence he always had the ability to rebuild his artillery foundary. The fight was pretty even, but the howitzers made it ridiculous.
Combined with India's slow unit production it was nearly impossible to take out the howitzers before they did too much damage.
Needless to say, in the end he won the game (after deleting his settlers, tho).
The only mistake I made (or atleast the one I realized I did) was not to fully exploit India's infinite card units.
So it got me wondering: Is this MU generally in favor of either civ?
Is there an effective strat for India to beat Germany, who has had the time to gather twice the amount of resources?

My first post here, so pls don't be too hard on me If there already is a thread covering this question, please tell!

[Jaeger]

I don't play much treaty but I believe India vs Germany in treaty is german favored.

[Jaeger]

I don't play much treaty but I believe India vs Germany in treaty is german favored.

Though in FFA it's probably a lot closer, since a german player might not have the standard 1 infinite heavy cannon in their deck

[[Armag] diarouga]

India's late game is weak anyway.
I would go gurkha/zam or maybe gurkha/howdhas+siege elephants and urumis.
Few mahouts if needed.

[howlingwolfpaw]

I play India almost exclusively in FFA and treaty. This match up is pretty even I think. Germany has to under pop to really be effective. Once heavy cannons come out it can be very hard to gain some ground so if Its 1v1 its best to hit hard and really push before that happens. Eco wise if you are doing a full boom in TR after you have stock piled some food after treaty begins and have your cash of coin and wood crates coming you can reduce down to 80 vills until you get low on coin if the germs are over running you do to low pop. Also maintaining tigers is key to indas power. Most times I feel india over powers them and I win most matchups but its just about maintaining eco and not allowing them to mass heavy cannons

Lately I have been taking out the merc cards and just using infinite 1300 wood and 9 urumi. the 8 war eles might be worth it, but I look at it like this. If i send 1300 wood I can make 6 mahouts which are way better than war eles and wont deplete my coin. Same with 23 chakrams. although a great unit with range 10 they tend to be on front lines and are coin costly that I can use better on other things and stay at my more effective eco situation longer. I find 9 urumi to be more effective and versatile and cheaper to use. Just make sure to que them up when you have 199 pop.

Also about siege I used to only make siege eles. But after retrying Flail eles found out I love them. they are just a cheap quicker training way to take out FB, just dont send them out alone.

[Magnam]

The 2k coin Nat shipments are nice for the fact that they don't cost pop. So I would always use at least one of the shipments as India.

[howlingwolfpaw]

For a long time I used 23 chakrams and 8 war eles but realized it was really costing me in coin and once I've done my trade I really don't want to have to switch to coin again on paddies. Its a nice bonus but there are better alternatives. By saving 20k on average from those shipments I can gain over 20k in wood or really powerful urumi units. (so 20k is like 630 sepoy worth, about what I would use in most games) Since my coin will last longer I can stay at 80 villie pop for longer thus having a larger army of stronger units than the mercs.

Neither way is wrong or right but provide different options.

[evilcheadar]

For a long time I used 23 chakrams and 8 war eles but realized it was really costing me in coin and once I've done my trade I really don't want to have to switch to coin again on paddies. Its a nice bonus but there are better alternatives. By saving 20k on average from those shipments I can gain over 20k in wood or really powerful urumi units. (so 20k is like 630 sepoy worth, about what I would use in most games) Since my coin will last longer I can stay at 80 villie pop for longer thus having a larger army of stronger units than the mercs.

Neither way is wrong or right but provide different options.

Use the tigers, why not use tigers

[howlingwolfpaw]

always use tigers. as previously stated in first post "maintaining tigers is key to indias power"

[Makinee]

Damn, wrote a long comment but it disappeared since the site logged me out due to time out. But I'll summarize:
The biggest problem with India is the slow unit production, which means that you cannot counter as fast as your enemy and you have, by average, fewer troops on the ground. Also if u make elephants, they are quite pop heavy, so you drag even more in numbers. I think the Chakrami and the War Elephants are useful in this perspective: You get more units on the ground, since they don't cost any pop. Even if it makes your eco drain a little faster, I still think they are worth it since it gives your army the strength it really needs.

That being said, I should look into Flail elephants (less pop heavy, less costy, come faster). And the tigers! They tank damage good, I'd guess.

[momuuu]

As india I have never been able to figure out how to deal with cannons. You dont have cav to flank and siege elephants are stupid.

[Makinee]

I've found sepoys in cover mode quite good against cannons. Atleast if there are 5 or less of them. In addition maybe some zamburak/howdah/siege elephant (all have multipliers against artillery).
Then again, grenadiers are a tough one to beat with India.

[howlingwolfpaw]

tigers, howdas and siege eles good for artillery. sometimes if its a clear shot to them I put Howdas in hand attack mode and they decimate them. Artillery is their biggest weakness but if they didn't have it they would over run the field with better units.
Even though mahouts are pop heavy and clumsy and slow once a mahout is in position will kill light infantry faster than cannon can. I basically look at it like a hand attack cannon unit.
In a patch they should have at least one spammable unit even if its camels to make them more viable to use in late game. with 2 cards and a tech eles train slower than cav wth just a card and a tech.
I personally would like to see mahouts and howdas nerfed and put down to 4 pop and train slightly faster. and siege else increased range
india attacks and pushes in waves, so you make some ground, build a fb, retrain army before pushing again and keep doing that. I get the whole over pop thing with mercs I've done it a lot. the 8 war eles still might be worth adding. but its not the only way to play the civ. I can over pop simply with less villies. which also keeps a core army of about 90-100 on the field at all times.

[howlingwolfpaw]

oh yeah they have big weakness vs grenadiers.... urumi or tigers are best defense but thats hard to rely on when people can really mass them

[Lukas_L99]

In treaty India's only chance is to overrun the german at start since India's starting army is so much better than Germany's, but if the German player gets a decent position with walls and towers and the infinite heavy cannon starts to come in, India barely has a chance since siege elephants are awful units.

[howlingwolfpaw]

sometimes in 1v1 germany i fur trade at 35 mins so i can delete vills right away after start army is gone to push hard on germs. but its risky then as its sort of all in with less coin to continue the match if you don't stop them building a FB. I also start with more siege eles if I plan to do that.

[Lukas_L99]

sometimes in 1v1 germany i fur trade at 35 mins so i can delete vills right away after start army is gone to push hard on germs. but its risky then as its sort of all in with less coin to continue the match if you don't stop them building a FB. I also start with more siege eles if I plan to do that.

On what map? On andes you'd use natives in 1v1 which means you can try to trade very early (I'd even do it at like 31 mins) and just overrun his native posts to take them, you wouldnt need to kill vills since you got more army from the nat posts.

[howlingwolfpaw]

I'm hesitant to play india on 1v1 on andes because if i were to fail at getting those post I would have a problem keeping nats up as I have no embassy. I like a team mate for andes. for 1v1 I mainly play mongolia. But other maps can be fun too like occasionally an Ori or whatever. But maybe ill consider that for a andes game if it ever happens