TOTW #4 Spies discussion

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TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by evilcheadar »

Spies in tr, to get or not to get----the truth is it can be valuable in lower level team games. In high level games where you are basically fighting down a corridor it's not good to get spies because it's a game off who's running out of resources first. However in lower level play spies can be useful to catch raids and boxes. Check out our podcast for more discussion!

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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by noissance »

I like spies if its only under 10k gold. Otherwise, I get it as soon as enemy start army gets killed.
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by purplesquid »

Under pr 25 and if you are playing against Japan or Russia then get it, otherwise I would say no.
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by noissance »

Spies is only useful against runner civs. Even ottomans can cause problems with battlefield construction/2 mortars on side. Jans can slip in between sieged pillars and build in space there once mortars destroy.
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by Gear_Head »

Disclaimer: I tend to play against low level players because I'm low level myself.

Playing Dutch most of the time means I can often get it at around 10k if I Imperial by 17-18, and Dutch have no issue generating 10k gold very quickly. If in a team game it's below 18k, I usually don't regret getting it either.

I honestly have never considered not getting spies, but I'd probably get punished more for it against better opponents. It's kind of given me a really bad habit of not walling well since I can see flanks coming.
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by noissance »

If you get spies then you have to try and preserve your artillery as they do the most damage vs runner civs, and cost a lot of gold.
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Gear_Head wrote:Disclaimer: I tend to play against low level players because I'm low level myself.

Playing Dutch most of the time means I can often get it at around 10k if I Imperial by 17-18, and Dutch have no issue generating 10k gold very quickly. If in a team game it's below 18k, I usually don't regret getting it either.

I honestly have never considered not getting spies, but I'd probably get punished more for it against better opponents. It's kind of given me a really bad habit of not walling well since I can see flanks coming.


Yesh that's why we talked about it. High level players will absolutely never even consider it, but in lower level play choosing whether or not to get it is a strategic decision based on how much it costs, what civs you're playing and how the map is laid out.
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by Gear_Head »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
Gear_Head wrote:--SNIP--


Yesh that's why we talked about it. High level players will absolutely never even consider it, but in lower level play choosing whether or not to get it is a strategic decision based on how much it costs, what civs you're playing and how the map is laid out.


Agree wholeheartedly. Haven't listened to the third episode yet; sorry if I repeated anything!
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by momuuu »

Instead of getting spies, wall up the map. That gives you the vision and time to react to any surprises like spies would, except that it costs like 1000 wood amd not 10k-20k coin.
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Jerom wrote:Instead of getting spies, wall up the map. That gives you the vision and time to react to any surprises like spies would, except that it costs like 1000 wood amd not 10k-20k coin.


Not exactly, because spies can help immediately after the treaty period when you can't have walls everywhere. And you may not be able to wall up in every area of the map during the game.
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by momuuu »

fightinfrenchman wrote:
Jerom wrote:Instead of getting spies, wall up the map. That gives you the vision and time to react to any surprises like spies would, except that it costs like 1000 wood amd not 10k-20k coin.


Not exactly, because spies can help immediately after the treaty period when you can't have walls everywhere. And you may not be able to wall up in every area of the map during the game.

When I watch top treaty players play, one of the first things they do when the treaty ends is making walls all across the map so that their opponents cant run on them. They do this over microing their units even, and they always manage to get decent walls up.
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by fightinfrenchman »

Jerom wrote:
fightinfrenchman wrote:
Jerom wrote:Instead of getting spies, wall up the map. That gives you the vision and time to react to any surprises like spies would, except that it costs like 1000 wood amd not 10k-20k coin.


Not exactly, because spies can help immediately after the treaty period when you can't have walls everywhere. And you may not be able to wall up in every area of the map during the game.

When I watch top treaty players play, one of the first things they do when the treaty ends is making walls all across the map so that their opponents cant run on them. They do this over microing their units even, and they always manage to get decent walls up.


This was already acknowledged; I am aware top treaty players do not use spies. The tip is saying that in lower level play there are situations in which spies is advantageous.
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by evilcheadar »

Lower level players dont have the actions per minute to get the walls up, so why not 1 click for spies
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by momuuu »

evilcheadar wrote:Lower level players dont have the actions per minute to get the walls up, so why not 1 click for spies

Yeah I guess thats true. Although Id always advise to at least try out the walling.
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by Gear_Head »

On the other hand, if you know you've out eco'd your opponents by a wide margin, does the downside to spies (resource expenditure) remain as relevant?
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by momuuu »

From what I know, at some point treaty isnt about breaking the ohter guy's base, but about not running out of resources. Top players never get stuff running around in their eco, and always win or lose by running out of res after or before the opponent. In that case spies just isnt worth it.

In a way, its better advice to say "try to not get spies but pratice with walling and other ways to prevent running", although if you're not as good at the game, ita better to go for spies in the short run. In the long run its better to practice the optimal playstyle though.
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Re: TOTW #4 Spies discussion

Post by Gear_Head »

Yeah, I suppose you're right. At the low levels, you do get alot of break-ins to people's bases, so I've always used spies to exploit weak spots/create weak spots. I do want to get better though, so I'm going to see how I go changing my habits. :)

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