Aztec OP on patch?

[britishmusketeer]

Which is the way people are forced to fight in major plus arena. which is primarily a skirm goon combo. Its nice to build some strong melee civs like aztec, spain, germany and india, having to play civs one way leads to very static predictable game play and takes the strategy out of it.

So you want melee units to be strong but you make a thread complaining about jags?

[Gichtenlord]

Which is the way people are forced to fight in major plus arena. which is primarily a skirm goon combo. Its nice to build some strong melee civs like aztec, spain, germany and india, having to play civs one way leads to very static predictable game play and takes the strategy out of it.

So you want melee units to be strong but you make a thread complaining about jags?

Oh, thank you. I wanted to say the same

[howlingwolfpaw]

Which is the way people are forced to fight in major plus arena. which is primarily a skirm goon combo. Its nice to build some strong melee civs like aztec, spain, germany and india, having to play civs one way leads to very static predictable game play and takes the strategy out of it.

So you want melee units to be strong but you make a thread complaining about jags?

uhh all I ask is that you look into having urumi card train at speeds of inf... not boosting their effective HP 40%. that is a MAJOR difference. I am asking that a civ has a viable counter in TR that makes india balanced and good in SUP.

using walls is not a counter..... that is a strategy tactic. civs should all have units to counter each type of other units. including the ability to destroy walls.

[zoom]

When I saw this thread I wanted to say "Aztec are useless."

Then I realized it's not on EP.

[BraveDryWall]

I agree with howling, it's crazy how much disrespect urumi are getting here. I mean how does a 1 pop jag knight have 100 seige, good anti-inf attack, good speed, good anti cav and 615 hp make sense? It doesn't is the answer. I mean a 2 pop hussar has like 700 hp costs 120m 80 gold for less flexible hand attack much less seige and barely more speed I think.

[howlingwolfpaw]

Thank you bravedrywall, jag knight regular speed is 4.5 but on andes gets 5.4 with the nats upgrade. hussars start with 6.75 speed

[Lukas_L99]

You just can't compare hussars with jaguar prowl knights, they're completely different units. Again, I don't know why their HP was buffed (same as idk why they gave bombards 4 splash damage instead of 5), but jaguar prowl knights really aren't as strong as you make them to appear.

Probably I will play India vs Aztecs (or vice versa) in the next days to show you that it's a close match up, but it's pretty boring to play since it's basically just spamming infantry until someone is out of res.

Judging from the statistics of your past games playing India vs Aztecs I can see that you made 111(!) mahouts and only 61 tigers IN TOTAL in a fight that lasted 23 minutes. Keep in mind that eagle runner knights are the best anti cav in the game for their pop and tigers are an essential meatshield, especially vs aztecs (you literally have 20 extra units). Ideally you shouldn't be making any mahouts vs aztecs unless they really have no erk on the field, source : http://www.agecommunity.com/stats/GameS ... =ZS_Treaty

I don't think I need to say much about the game against evilcheadar except 6 tigers IN TOTAL and 110 mahouts vs mainly inca huamincas, eagle runner knights and jaguar prowl knights...

[BraveDryWall]

You just can't compare hussars with jaguar prowl knights, they're completely different units. Again, I don't know why their HP was buffed (same as idk why they gave bombards 4 splash damage instead of 5), but jaguar prowl knights really aren't as strong as you make them to appear.

Probably I will play India vs Aztecs (or vice versa) in the next days to show you that it's a close match up, but it's pretty boring to play since it's basically just spamming infantry until someone is out of res.

Judging from the statistics of your past games playing India vs Aztecs I can see that you made 111(!) mahouts and only 61 tigers IN TOTAL in a fight that lasted 23 minutes. Keep in mind that eagle runner knights are the best anti cav in the game for their pop and tigers are an essential meatshield, especially vs aztecs (you literally have 20 extra units). Ideally you shouldn't be making any mahouts vs aztecs unless they really have no erk on the field, source : http://www.agecommunity.com/stats/GameS ... =ZS_Treaty

I don't think I need to say much about the game against evilcheadar except 6 tigers IN TOTAL and 110 mahouts vs mainly inca huamincas, eagle runner knights and jaguar prowl knights...

The aztec player can get out his units so much faster than indian, and you're losing units so fast as it is cause the jag prowlers close so fast with the speed buff of andes. You barely even have time to make the tiger unfortunately. Ignoring the sling machultin guys in the back is a recipe for disaster so you need some mahout, and you can at least hope they stay alive for more than 2 sec unlike the sepoy gurk you make that just seem to die to jags and eagle runner knight anyway

[Lukas_L99]

You just can't compare hussars with jaguar prowl knights, they're completely different units. Again, I don't know why their HP was buffed (same as idk why they gave bombards 4 splash damage instead of 5), but jaguar prowl knights really aren't as strong as you make them to appear.

Probably I will play India vs Aztecs (or vice versa) in the next days to show you that it's a close match up, but it's pretty boring to play since it's basically just spamming infantry until someone is out of res.

Judging from the statistics of your past games playing India vs Aztecs I can see that you made 111(!) mahouts and only 61 tigers IN TOTAL in a fight that lasted 23 minutes. Keep in mind that eagle runner knights are the best anti cav in the game for their pop and tigers are an essential meatshield, especially vs aztecs (you literally have 20 extra units). Ideally you shouldn't be making any mahouts vs aztecs unless they really have no erk on the field, source : http://www.agecommunity.com/stats/GameS ... =ZS_Treaty

I don't think I need to say much about the game against evilcheadar except 6 tigers IN TOTAL and 110 mahouts vs mainly inca huamincas, eagle runner knights and jaguar prowl knights...

The aztec player can get out his units so much faster than indian, and you're losing units so fast as it is cause the jag prowlers close so fast with the speed buff of andes. You barely even have time to make the tiger unfortunately. Ignoring the sling machultin guys in the back is a recipe for disaster so you need some mahout, and you can at least hope they stay alive for more than 2 sec unlike the sepoy gurk you make that just seem to die to jags and eagle runner knight anyway

Well aztecs are easier to play than India for sure, I can agree with that. But if you're too slow to make tigers that's just low apm and and melee cav vs aztecs is just hopeless unless he has maybe <10 ERK on the field. Keep in mind to always have all 5 castles at the front so aztec melee units get shot by them aswell and just wall a lot cause arrow knights take pretty long to break walls.

[howlingwolfpaw]

the most comparable unit is a halb, which the best dutch halbs top out at 470 hp, other civs around 380. But do way less attack vs other HI, and a little less vs cav. but that less attack is mitigated by sheer HP (615 about 30% increase) and versatility and siege.

vs charle he was spamming inf so fast I could not micro my explorers, they kept dying.... I also have this problem that even though they are on stand. still they still walk up to units in LOS. I could not make a FB either because arrow knights and inf spam dominated the field. I had to make sepoys to protect my gurkas, but he has instant spamming maceuhlitians that were tearing my sepoy up, so I had to send tons of mahouts. but then waves of jags would kill everything and put me back into my walls. what is india to do when they cant make cav vs the best anti cav civ in the game and have no anti inf artillery? they need the urumi. the few times i shipped them i was able to take push back a little just to breathe a moment. now with tigers getting a light inf tag get killed easily by jags and spear men as well (but may not even be worth using at all). and since most light inf has a range resist and tigers don't they also get murdered by ranged fire pretty easily.

vs cheddar I was making lots of mace too because they were cheap and effective vs sepoy. I was actually about drained a few times (because accidentally put my pit on XP rather than train rate and could not fill my pop at times) but any time he came out of his walls he died in seconds due to jags. I finally made about 24 arrow knights and broke into his base and took him out with waves of jags and coyotes. he should have made more tigers though he had more opportunity.

I would love to see this matchup sometime.

[howlingwolfpaw]

i understand balancing civs like these is difficult. it would just be nice if user feed back were greater appreciated rather than making excuses for these decisions or to say that they are not worth using. make them worth using.

I want to thank you guys for putting in the work to take such a task on as to make TR a more balanced platform. and many of the changes were really good and I am excited to try other civs. But india is my babe and I just want to see her treated as justly. She is dynamic and flexible and the urumi is her shinning gem.

[BraveDryWall]

You just can't compare hussars with jaguar prowl knights, they're completely different units. Again, I don't know why their HP was buffed (same as idk why they gave bombards 4 splash damage instead of 5), but jaguar prowl knights really aren't as strong as you make them to appear.

Probably I will play India vs Aztecs (or vice versa) in the next days to show you that it's a close match up, but it's pretty boring to play since it's basically just spamming infantry until someone is out of res.

Judging from the statistics of your past games playing India vs Aztecs I can see that you made 111(!) mahouts and only 61 tigers IN TOTAL in a fight that lasted 23 minutes. Keep in mind that eagle runner knights are the best anti cav in the game for their pop and tigers are an essential meatshield, especially vs aztecs (you literally have 20 extra units). Ideally you shouldn't be making any mahouts vs aztecs unless they really have no erk on the field, source : http://www.agecommunity.com/stats/GameS ... =ZS_Treaty

I don't think I need to say much about the game against evilcheadar except 6 tigers IN TOTAL and 110 mahouts vs mainly inca huamincas, eagle runner knights and jaguar prowl knights...

The aztec player can get out his units so much faster than indian, and you're losing units so fast as it is cause the jag prowlers close so fast with the speed buff of andes. You barely even have time to make the tiger unfortunately. Ignoring the sling machultin guys in the back is a recipe for disaster so you need some mahout, and you can at least hope they stay alive for more than 2 sec unlike the sepoy gurk you make that just seem to die to jags and eagle runner knight anyway

Well aztecs are easier to play than India for sure, I can agree with that. But if you're too slow to make tigers that's just low apm and and melee cav vs aztecs is just hopeless unless he has maybe <10 ERK on the field. Keep in mind to always have all 5 castles at the front so aztec melee units get shot by them aswell and just wall a lot cause arrow knights take pretty long to break walls.

Tiger are somewhat expensive, they will die to the machultin that you can't kill cause you can't make mahout. All while arrow knight shoot overhead. You'll also need that apm to rebuild barracks in space you don't have cause jags are everywhere, also i should mention the slow training soldiers you have to keep training as your sepoy for some reason also die fast to eagle runner knight (an anti cav unit)

[howlingwolfpaw]

ERK is a Hi killer too.... they attack 2x as fast so are basically do 60 damage but have 4 more range, and 30% range resist with far more HP than a skirm, effectively they are about even but slightly less range than a skirm. for instance a skirm kills a sepoy ( full sepoy 470 hp 59 attack) in about 5 shots but dies in 7 shots from a sepoy. A ERK needs 16 shots to kill a sepoy, divided by 2 is the same time as 8 shots from a skirm. but takes 9 hits from a sepoy to kill it (7 shots worth if using 10 priest on attack dance). taking 60% more time to kill sepoy than a skirm, but lasting 80% longer than a skirm.

[BraveDryWall]

Maybe add hp to coyote and lessen jag hp..

That's a solution that could work

[BraveDryWall]

I mean if the coyote are supposed to be the aztec cav then they are meant to have some means to close with the enemy like the high hp cav usually have. Jags have high hp but they not really supposed to be cav I thought, although the coyote are faster than them. Kinda makes you wonder why even bother to make many coyote..

Well I guess you could argue the current stats make aztec unique, make 2 pseudo cav units that both kinda act like cav.

[howlingwolfpaw]

completely agree.... coyotes are the weakest cav unit for a civ to depend on. and with no artillery they need to be stronger to kill skirms. Jags still ahve a pretty low attack vs skirms so they are not really equipped to do that job. I would propose more hp. and a .5 bonus towards skirm units. giving them 57 attack vs a skirm and hp closer to cossacks.

then bring the jag knight to regular stats so it can do what it is meant to do..... kill halbs, rods, dopples, etc...

also jags can stealth.... this is very sneaky tactic combined with obsenly high hp and seige is dangerous. I played another game with cheddar (he wanted a rematch, and did do better with using some urumi vs me), i got one of his nats but I didn't have the wood to use much nats. I built up a army of humicans and then made 30-40 jags on stealth. Broke his walls with the huminicans but put my stealthy jags right in his eco, for an inevitable GG. I actually pretty much was able to take out his whole doing this.

[howlingwolfpaw]

Mercs is a bad comparison, as they are not as frequently used in supremacy in general as urumis are by india players in sup. Additionally, even in supremacy they lose effectiveness the longer the game is, while Urumi auto-upgrade and, hence, are always a strong choice.

I dont think that urumis are a great unit in super late game sup either.

They are only tricky to use because of the same reason they are in TR. They arrive slowly. But they are very good units, especially when you can get like 12-15 of them stacked up, and really necessary vs some civs. I use them in late game FFA as well and they go late game, it helps me make india a really strong civ.

[charlemagen]

They take 18 pop to send, so thats 18 pop you do not have while the card is being sent. Lukas used urumis in a treaty game the other day and they were useless.

[howlingwolfpaw]

if the card were sent at the same time that inf trains at then it would be no different than training a batch of units. you que it up at 199 pop to start. Its like using the german HC card its high pop too, but worth it, (though heavy cannon are better) lucas playing one game does not mean these suggestions should be over looked, unless that is you want to support my theory that this TR patch is really only for Major plus and curtailed to the playing style of the top 20 players. If you want to see it more universally used then you need to consider how lower ranked players play as well. If it is useless then it should be made to be useful, as I do not see why a balancing patch would just not want to include the urumi.

If people are so opposed to the urumi then they need to add something to india to take out large masses of inf. (maybe inf one of those merc heavy cannon) If its still really bad then urumi should be reworked to no pop like mercs but have a limit to how many can be sent like HC.

[_NiceKING_]

If people are so opposed to the urumi then they need to add something to india to take out large masses of inf.

You can use falconets from British consulate

[howlingwolfpaw]

yes you can but you don't get that many shipments. so its not a reliable source for anti inf abilities.

[charlemagen]

We are not balancing for the major+ ranks, were balancing base on how civs "should" be played. It is too hard to balance for lower level ranks because like other have said, basic unit compositions and booms win those fights not micro

[howlingwolfpaw]

should be played? there should be multiple ways and options, that's what makes it a strategy game. If you are just making it for how you think it "should" be played then that really does prove the point! buffing some units and strategies that make others even weaker.... Start thinking about how the game "CAN" be played it will make it more fun for all.

You guys seem like about as out of touch as republican and democrats about how to fix the economy. For as good as you guys are you just don't seem to understand.

[charlemagen]

should be played? there should be multiple ways and options, that's what makes it a strategy game. If you are just making it for how you think it "should" be played then that really does prove the point! buffing some units and strategies that make others even weaker.... Start thinking about how the game "CAN" be played it will make it more fun for all.

You guys seem like about as out of touch as republican and democrats about how to fix the economy. For as good as you guys are you just don't seem to understand.

No, that's not what I mean. I am saying that the people who made the patch play at the highest level of play that treaty sees. So we balance it according to our standards. You saying buff urumi is something that might be cool for a lower level of play, but for us the card is not worthwhile. We have tried explaining why it isn't but you refuse to listen simply because you like the card and the unit, which is fine. What strategies are you talking about? because it seems to me the strategies you want to be upheld on the TR patch either are not viable, or only viable in extreme circumstances. If you feel like were missing something specifically in the TR patch let us know because we are always open to new ideas, and never shut down an idea because we do not like it, but because it doesn't work.

[howlingwolfpaw]

do you realize how much you contradict yourself? you are open to ideas but have been shutting this down the whole time. I am not a newb man, I play at captain level. If I used more hotkeys for barracks and wall spammed I would be even higher.

I am listening, but I refuse to accept your excuses and criticism of the unit without helping to find ways to make them work. Strategies that make mahouts more useful. urumi and mahout work in a synergistic way to create a very deadly melee wall. they also break up ranks of Goons, and defend from melee HI. Makining india a strong melee civ rather than trying to get people to play it like most euro civs where you have 60% gurka, 10% siege ele and 30% howda, That combo makes TR stale. Its part of reason why I love FFA so much, but I also like TR and would like to see more viable strats created. Rather than relying on a one way type of play for a civ. A civ with no cannon to speak of.

They can be made to work even at the highest levels. They are a niche unit and deserve to be in the game playing in TR.